Break Away from Your Limitations

Ian Paget: Something I like to do with the podcast is create content that can help people that may be just starting out or thinking about potentially growing an agency. And that's something that you are in the process of doing. How did you initially start out? How did you get into graphic design? How did that eventually lead to you starting an agency of your own?

Jozelle Tech: Well, let me quickly tell you a story. Since I was five years old, I've always liked drawing even though my old neighbour friend always told me that I’m not good in terms of drawing. She even told me… I wanted to take up fine arts in college, but she was laughing at me like, hey, you can't even draw a human stick figure.

Ian Paget: That’s so rude for that person to do that. But good for you for carrying on.

Jozelle Tech: Yes. Because I just really love drawing sketches. I even remember drawing characters from my favourite anime Ghost Fighters’ and such. And so I took it as a challenge and practiced even more. And so when I graduated from high school that's the first time I learned or encountered Photoshop. And oh my God, I really fell in love with Photoshop. I really love the fact that you can really play around with colours, delete them if you don't like it, and just really play around it. And so when I was taking my college entrance exam, I really looked into having a multimedia course. And so that's where I started to really enhance my skills and to just really explore myself into design and graphic designs. So that's how I really started. I did a lot of work for my classmates, my friends, even my family who have local businesses here in the Philippines and so that's how I was able to really practice. And so that was the origin. But when I started working…

Ian Paget: Just before you do go into that, I want to stress even though you had people telling you that you wasn't very good. A lot of people would potentially give up if somebody tells them that they're not good at something. But you persevered anyway. You kept going through and then you found a love for graphic design through Photoshop, which is amazing. So I'll let you continue with your story.

Jozelle Tech: Yes, Thank you. Thank you so much. I think it's something that I've learned from my late brother that you can always be persistent with things. You can always work on your craft, your skills. That's why I like the movie “The Pursuit of Happiness”. I don't know if you've watched it already. Like there’s a line there. “You got the dream, you got to protect it. People can't do something themselves”.

Ian Paget: Is it the Will Smith movie?

Jozelle Tech: That's it.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I know the one.

Jozelle Tech: Yeah. I love it so much. I watched it probably more than five times already, whenever I'm feeling down, and the line there where he said people can't do something themselves. They want to tell you can't do it. So if you want something you just go get it and just do it, and so that's what I did. And the fact that I've learned how to use Photoshop and doing that I don't really need to be very, very good in drawing, you know my free hand, using a freehand style because graphic design is basically putting things together and creating a piece. And so that's how I really started with that. Now when I've applied with my official first job, I applied as a designer, and then honestly the second time a person told me that you're not good enough, you're not really good with this who was my first ever boss. He was telling me you know what Jozelle, you're really good. I like you, I like how you think, how you communicate. I just think any way you are not fit with graphic design. Let me transfer you to a different department and that's when he transferred me to search engine optimisation and marketing. But I stayed there for two years, but I told him I really appreciate all the learning experience that I've had here but I really want to pursue designing. You told me I might not be fit into that department, but I will explore and improve myself and be fit to what I really want to do. And so I resigned and then moved into a different company. And so from there I was able to really build up my career with design and marketing, and basically that's the beginning of how I built my freelancing career.

Ian Paget: Sure. I think you were actually given a golden ticket in a way because I think as a business owner knowing marketing and SEO is such an incredible skillset to have and use. And again, it's so admirable that you had someone that said that you're not very good at graphic design, but you still persevered with that anyway because it's your dream. But like I said, I do think it was a bit of a golden ticket for you in a way because it gave you access to a team where you probably learned a lot from being in that job doing SEO and marketing that you've probably been able to apply to your business that you ended up building.

Jozelle Tech: Oh, definitely. Especially when I became an online entrepreneur, I realised that the game has been and always would be about marketing, and so I love the fact that I was able to be exposed in that field or in that industry early-on in my career.

Ian Paget: Oh absolutely. It’s one thing that I was lucky enough to also get in at the last company that I worked for prior to working to myself. There was an SEO team, and although I didn't work in the team, I worked very closely with them so I picked up a lot of those skills and it's just so valuable. Like I said I think even though it probably didn't feel like a good thing at the time, looking back now like in hindsight actually that was a really good thing to be able to pick up.

Jozelle Tech: Yes, definitely.

Ian Paget: Okay. So you ended up building your own agency, The Rolling Media. How did that start out? Like you said that you was working for companies, how did you go from working for companies to starting your own thing?

Jozelle Tech: Okay. Well it all started when I had a messy year, year 2016 I had health issues, relationship issues, a lot of issues in my life, it's like I was twenty five that time, it's like quarter life crisis for me. And so I had to really start all over again, and then after that moment of my life I started to do freelancing more like really doing my own thing at my own time. You know getting clients who I want to work with. Not really having a full time job where you have a fixed 09:00-05:00 schedule. So I started from there, I was doing freelancing and then I started a YouTube channel. The YouTube channel was really just a spark of an idea while I was browsing online because those were the days where I was already interested with brand strategy, branding, because I've always done graphic design, website, brand logos, and then a little bit of marketing on the side like digital marketing, social media, SEO etcetera. And so I had a thought like how can I combine those two things and do it as my own thing but as I learned more on YouTube, I got exposed on different field, different niches like content creation, and then something started, something sparked on me, like having a mission to educate fellow differently abled people like me to develop skills and make money out from it to basically have a livelihood for them to build their life, their finance, and I think that's how I was able to really build on The Rolling Media.

That's why I called it The Rolling Media because my vision is to be able to provide livelihood and inspiration and education to people that… you can you can definitely do this just like me because back then when I was still in school, I really don't know what my life would be like, what the future will be for me because I don't know in your country, but here it's a little bit difficult to get a job in the office especially that you have a disability. It's not just about getting into the job but also going to the job. Like it's not that practical for me to move from one place to another. And so I don't know, it just felt like a lot are doing tutorials with makeup, with cars, with beautification, with finance, with different things, but no one is really focusing on providing education or awareness to people like us. And so that's how I really started with that. And then as I build my content on YouTube, I got to reach people who are interested in knowing what I do at work, and then I think I have this video about online jobs that gained a lot of views and comments, and that's how it really started. You know, like people were telling me can you teach me how to do that and so on, and from there I picked up a few people and tell them like I'll do a mini course let's try this out if you want to really learn, and then I did that I did a mini course for a few months. And then from there I got to know more of those audience that has been supporting me and that's how I got my team. Basically those people who supported me on my personal brand content creating journey, I got to be able to work with them with my freelance gigs, with my freelance projects and that's how I got to be able to really build the team for The Rolling Media. So basically it started with having people rather than having the company itself.

Ian Paget: I think that's amazing and I hope you don't mind drawing some attention to this, but in agencies I worked at previously, companies that I worked at previously, I don't think I've seen anyone in a wheelchair in the office. And in the U.K I am aware that there are certain laws and things for people in wheelchair users and with any disability. But it does make me wonder if it does create a barrier. I'm sure it does. You know it's very likely that it does create a barrier. You know just for actually having the interview. I remember where I used to work they had a lift but I remember someone came in for a training course and it couldn't take the weight of their wheelchair which was really embarrassing. So there's wars in front of you and it's admirable that you persevered. Like your mindset and mentality to persevering no matter what is very admirable. And I think if there's anyone listening to this that has a disability of any sort, whether they're a wheelchair user like yourself or if they have other disabilities that maybe get in the way of in “A Normal Life”. So yeah, it's admirable that you've done that and something that I like about you, I've done reading up about you and I've listened to a couple of other things that you've done previously, you like the saying that you live life on your own terms and you don't let your disability take over. Do you mind talking a little bit about it because I think that could be really valuable for some people that could be in the same position as you, but maybe think they can't do that because of X, Y, and Z.

Jozelle Tech: Yes, definitely, and thank you so much for where you words. I really appreciate you Ian telling that, especially coming from you, and I definitely agree that it is a barrier to have this physical limitations because it's not just about doing the work, but really being able to live through doing it. Well, I definitely love to live my life on my own terms because well in most cases, people mistakenly equate disability with misery, vulnerability, inability or all the stereotypes that belong to being someone not worthy to actually do something great for themselves. Well, I'm not generalising everyone, definitely not, it's just that some weren't thought the essence of being able to see beyond what they can see visibly, some are not just thought the essence of being able to see beyond what they can actually see.

Basically I believe we are people who are differently abled and within that word or description, differently abled, it's just saying that we live in a different way, not like other people do. And I know for a fact that a lot of differently abled people like me have a better life than what other people think they have. It's just that the society has structured for us to be shying away from things, being locked in the room doing nothing or just really existing. And I think growing up in a wonderful family who are very supportive, taught me that I can do more, I can do more than what the society think I can, and so when we were raised by our parents in an environment that encouraged us to take care of ourselves and break away break away from our limitations, then that's when we were made aware that we can be great, and we can be known for something that could leave a legacy in our life. And so I just really feel like this mentality of really living in your own terms can also apply, or it can also be applicable in ourselves. Because the most important thing about being disabled Ian is knowing that you are disabled because the knowing point makes you less disabled.

Ian Paget: You've embraced it, you've accepted it and embraced it and doing what you can within your control, which is very admirable.

Jozelle Tech: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Ian Paget: Okay, so something I'm thinking, I think people that are… you used the term differently abled and I really liked that. So people that are differently abled prior to the Internet, 10, 20 years ago. I think the situation was different, and I think a lot of what you said about people's perceptions, I think that's old fashioned stereotypes, pre internet. I don't know if you're in agreement, but I feel like the internet would have made things easier. I think and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think COVID will have made things significantly easier because from my perception anyway, COVID changed everything. It sped up the idea of the workplace not needing to exist in one single location, like the idea of people having to travel to one location to sit down on a computer and like where I used to work, we used to come into work, we say hi to each other in the morning and I would sit there and just all look at a screen quietly and work away. The idea of doing that is just kind of stupid really because it's clogging up the roads, we are unnecessarily wasting time and energy and stuff like that traveling to one location. And the concept of it is like with when we have the internet, and the ability to work collectively as a team no matter where we are in the world. The idea of one central location where you all have to go all of the time just makes no sense. I do agree sometimes it's good to get together, it’s good for team building and all that sort of stuff and there's a lot of advantages to it, but COVID, which is only two years ago now, I feel that rapidly developed that, and I'm going to assume that will have opened up doors for you because you're very good at what you do, you know what you're doing, you're talented and great at everything you're doing, but the only downside is that you have a disability. Would you agree that COVID has made it easier for you because people are just more used to working with people through zoom and email and stuff like that?

Jozelle Tech: Well I think you have a good point with that. I think it has helped a lot of people, not me particularly, but people who have disabilities like me because well that's the thing… whenever I talk to people and during the quarantine times, and that was so long like for months, people have been quarantined for protection, I've been telling them that I’ve been quarantined for more than a decade.

Ian Paget: You’re used to it.

Jozelle Tech: Yes, I’m so used to it. Although it's still different where you can go out whenever you want to, like you have the freedom to really go out or meet with your friends or family whenever you want to but staying at home, working from home has been my life for the past 12, 13 years I guess. And so I see a lot of potential on this for people with disabilities because now they get to see opportunities of online freelancing, that's why I feel like it's very important to spread awareness of the opportunities that online freelancing provides to those with disabilities because I believe that it all starts with empowering them of what's possible, being able to see and showcase what can be done nowadays, especially with the technology that we have, and so definitely with me I get to be more comfortable even more because I've been doing this, and a lot have been doing it nowadays because of the COVID, and it really opens a lot of doors with working with local businesses because now they are forced to really move from traditional marketing to digital marketing, and so that's how I can see the opportunity for me. But ever since I started working because I think I have never worked in an office besides during my O. J. T (On the job training). After that I already started working from home. I still remember I got my first job from Craigslist. I don't know if they still have job postings there, and so I'm kind of old in this industry which is actually a good thing because I get to be able to see the transformation of the industry but since the beginning of internet and computers I think there was always an opportunity for people like us to be given a job or a career or a business to work on. It's just that we need more awareness around it.

Ian Paget: Yeah I think you're a very good role model. I know in the branding and graphic design space being completely honest, I don't know of any other wheelchair users or people with disabilities that they're at least sharing. I mean maybe they could be doing it, but they're potentially hiding it, there's very little people building awareness of that, and I think something that's really important that I've noticed anyway is people need to see people like them to be inspired by them, and that can be people with different colours, different sexualities, like everyone is different but you are naturally drawn to people that you have similarities to, and if you don't see people like you then you just feel like you can't do that. And I think it's amazing what you're doing. The fact that you're being so transparent and open about it. I think that conversations like the one we're having now will inspire people, and I don't mean just people with disabilities. I mean just people in general that no matter who you are, your background or anything like that. It's all down to mindset really. I think the key thing with you is you just have a good mindset, you don't let people that tell you that you're not very good at something get in your way, and you don't let your disability get in your way, you're just persevering and pushing forward, and I think to anyone not just people with disabilities, it's inspiring. I think you will be a significant role model and I think you should embrace that and really push forward because I think you have a good story and yeah, I think it will inspire people.

Jozelle Tech: Thank you, Ian. I really appreciate you telling me that because back then before I really became more intentional in building my personal brand, I was worried what will people think, if I'm doing this correctly, should I really be putting myself out there? It's like it could be patronising to be put up as some kind of feel good human interest story, or be objectified and glorified as some kind of a symbol for people who are different but based on the messages that I get every single day, I also know that when people get to know my story, get to know me or get to read or see my content, they really feel inspired. And so I feel like knowing that I'm just being myself, and I'm just really putting myself out there just to do my thing, inspires them. It felt good. And so I feel like I believe I had a validation that what I'm doing is right because I think it would be selfish of me not to share my story or my experience with the world, although I've always told my mom about this that I want to be known as a good entrepreneur, not a good disabled entrepreneur.

Ian Paget: I mean when it came out to wanting you as a guest on the podcast, the wheelchair wasn't my focus. The focus that I wanted to talk to you about was the personal branding stuff. It's like your attitude and everything is amazing. So in terms of your skill set and your attitude and everything that is important that's what you will become known for. But I think with personal branding and the incredible tools that we all have access to in terms of like social media and the internet and stuff like that telling your story is an important factor of KNOW. LIKE. TRUST. So it's one element of it. I know I’m drawing attention to it in this podcast, but it's just because I think you're one person that has a disability, you're communicating that, you're making people aware of that. And I want to bring attention to it purely because there will be people out there that will be listening, that will be inspired by it. But in terms of what you said, you want to be known as an expert, not as a disabled expert. I don't think you're going to have a problem with that because you know what you're doing.

Jozelle Tech: Yeah, definitely. And it's really no worries about that, and I even appreciate you asking me about that. It is always okay to really drawn into this discussion, and it's totally okay with me because the thing is I've always believed that everyone has a disability, it’s just that with me it's more visible than others, and I feel like the real limitation is the one you make up in your mind, and I know you've always been pushing about that mindset, which I really am thankful because I truly believe that the only real disability is your inability to live and enjoy your life whatever your circumstances. And so I hope I give inspiration not just to people like me who are differently abled, but people who are also struggling with anxiety, depression or just really when things are being hard, or life is being hard on them these days because I feel like everyone have their own struggles, everyone have their own limitations and it all boils down to how you manage it, how you use the mindset to actually handle everything. So thank you.

Ian Paget: Yeah, you're welcome. I very much like the idea, and I think I read this in… I think it was in the book, seven habits of highly successful person, I think it was in that book, but one of the habits is being control of how you feel and respond to a situation, and I think that's very much what you've done. Anyway, I want to go into some more of the stuff about building your business because there was something that you did and this is how I know you I think is you got mentorship from a previous guest that we've had on this podcast, Philip VanDusen. And I think it's through his group that I know you because you was helping him with some bits and pieces and I think that's how we originally got connected. But if I'm understanding right, and you can talk about this more afterwards, but I'll just give a quick overview. You wanted to bring brand strategy into your business, so he was doing graphic design, you wanted to get into strategy. So what you did is you found Philip VanDusen on YouTube, he does great content, he knows his stuff, he is a very experienced expert, there's not many people at his level, he's amazing. So what you decided to do was reach out to him and ask for consultancy but rather than paying him you offered an exchange of value, can you talk through like how you approached him and how you made that arrangement and just how that relationship built up with Philip because that's clearly a significant point in your life in the last few years.

Jozelle Tech: Yes, definitely. Philip has been a great duel in the success of my career in my business, and so I've always loved talking about our relationship together. We've been working together for three years now, and I've never been grateful and so it all started when me bench watching his YouTube channel, it's like a television series where I get to really watch a lot of his videos, and I think I read this or heard this from somewhere that you would want to get a mentor in every aspect of your life, and clearly Philip is a mentor for branding because when I was watching his videos, I'm not only learning from him, but I can really get to know him as a person. I feel like, I think I would click with this guy and so I started to really be more intentional in engaging with his content. I wasn't just really watching and consuming, just getting out from him, but I was really trying to support him, giving him some insightful comments not just for him but also for his audience. And then I think he started to notice me, and because I also have my YouTube channel at that time, he started to also watch some of my videos, he was even telling me that I was watching your videos and because I used two languages there our Filipino language Tagalog and English, and so whenever he watched my video, he would say like I was waiting for you to go back and speaking in English again, it's such a funny story how we get to engage online on YouTube. And then I think probably he saw me on LinkedIn since I'm also engaging with him, and then one day I got a notification from him, he connected with me and I told myself like, oh my God, this is the chance I've been waiting for, because I don't want to sell him anything.

I don't want to be pushy at all because I just really wanted to learn from him. And so when he connected on LinkedIn, then I really jumped in and message him like, oh, hey, Philip, like I've been with watching your content, I've been following you, I love your content. I just wanted to ask if what can I do for you in return of a few minutes of your time, I just wanted to hop on a call and learn more from you. And then we had some conversation on LinkedIn and then we hopped on a call, I still remember it was May 8^th 2019 and then I was… I know his coaching fees and of course I couldn't afford that at that time. And I told him I really wanted to learn from you, what can I do for you in return, because I always am a believer of give and take, I don't want to be just getting and getting and not giving anything, and so I always wanted it to be a bargain, an exchange of value as you call it. And then we were able to set up our structure of mentoring and working together, basically I helped him in marketing his personal brand since that's what I'm also niching down with during that time even now actually, and so I that's how we get connected and fast forward three years I believe we're still very happy working together.

Ian Paget: That's awesome. I think you reached out to him a really good time in his career because I've been lucky enough to meet Philip in person because he attended the Youpreneur Summit, which sadly Chris Ducker who set up that event, he's no longer doing that event now, but I was lucky enough to meet Philip in person a few times now, and I know he got to a point in his career where he worked for all of these agencies and he wanted to take it to that next level. And one of the big things for him was YouTube and obviously mentoring teaching and stuff like that. And from what I understand you were basically one of his first proper consulting clients, so it was really right place, right time opportunity. And just before I carry on I do want to… what I really like that you didn't just reach out to him. You built up that relationship first by consuming his content, responding to his content. Getting noticed by him and then waiting until he reached out to you which is a really smart thing to do. But yeah, you definitely reached out to him at the right time because I watched one of his videos that he did with you, and I can link to that in the show notes and he was talking about how you was almost like his first is it bunny rabbit? I can't remember what the saying is but..

Jozelle Tech: Guinea Pig.

Ian Paget: Guinea Pig, yeah. Why didn't I think a Guinea Pig? Yeah, he was your guinea pig, and he was able to build up that skill set working with somebody and right place, right time, you gave him a solid value. Yeah, and it's obviously a relationship that's worked really well for both of you. It's definitely beneficial for him and by the sound of it because if I understand right you learned brand strategy with him, you decided to basically just start doing it while you were learning with him, and a year later 60% of your income was from strategy and consulting, and only 40% of your income was from graphic design which was a 100% of your work previously. So that relationship definitely paid off to you. That was a very good choice on your part to reach out to him in that way. And I think it's a good example of situations where if you can't afford it, is there a way that you could work out an agreement. So there is that mutual exchange of value that's beneficial for both sides.

Jozelle Tech: Yes, definitely. Because whenever people want something, their first thought is, oh I can't afford it, I can't do that, I can’t take that. But the thing is what if you change the perspective as to how can I afford that, how can I get that, and so I think it always go back to the core value of perseverance and persistency, and so yes definitely I'm very grateful because I think that's the beauty of engaging without agenda because you never know where it might lead you. And so I learned that when you focus on looking for people with common interests or shared values or just really focus on meeting new people, building genuine relationships, cultivating the relationship together. It's something where there would be a point in your life where it will just grow. Like it's about marketing when you start to plant seeds in time as you put in the work every single day, you get to foster that intention, and then you just watch your business take off. It's very, very similar with relationship building and I have really proved that with the relationship I've had with Philip.

Ian Paget: Again, it's just a never admirable thing that you've done, so we've probably got about 15 minutes left and I want to make sure that we go through some of your specialty now. So you originally started off doing graphic design, you then moved on to introducing strategy thanks to the help of Philip, and from what I understand you're focusing on personal branding, so not just branding, but personal branding specifically for coaches and creators. What was it that grew you towards that niche?

Jozelle Tech: Well, I've always wanted to combine strategy and design or actually messaging and design back then, but then when I started to learn branding, and really be more in depth with the way I manage my business, I thought of what could be the best niche for me, and I've always loved this saying, hitting two birds with one stone, I almost always say it with different things, but I think working with business coaches, it's like hitting three birds with one stone, because first I get to work with business coaches to communicate their expertise and stories to the online world, which I love because I'm very fascinated to learning other people's stories, experiences. A lot of people get to learn from books, but I love to learn from other people's journey, mistakes, learnings in life, I feel like that's how I get to really learn by doing, by getting to know them. And then second is I get to also learn from their coaching business because since they are coaches, and specifically I work with business coaches and content creators, they get to teach me things that I can apply to my own business just like Philip. And then lastly and best of all we get to build a solid client mentor friend relationship, you know, like I get to be the one helping them build their personal brand, they get to help me build my business by mentoring and coaching me, and we get to build friendship all in one, and so that's really how I end up reminiscing down to coaches and consultants.

Ian Paget: Sure. How do you approach working with your clients to build a personal brand, would you mind talking through a little bit of your process, how you engage with people to build that personal brand for them?

Jozelle Tech: Yes. Our core services revolves around brand strategy design and marketing. With strategy, the basic foundation on it would be knowing the Why, What, and How. Basically the purpose, the vision and the mission of the brand because figuring out who you are, what you do, your story and foundation, and creating a strategy to communicate it effectively through words and visuals, that's our game. The marketing is basically putting the word out and then we help them with… once we're done with the brand strategy, brand vision phase, then we move into the brand design where we work on the look and feel of the brand, like the brand identity, the brand touch points like the website, social media, we even have the service, brand fashion where we help them give them a guidance in terms of doing personal brand photography, like what clothes to wear, what location or where they should shoot it like the kind of pose that would really show their personality through visuals or through photos, and then marketing. With marketing, it's more like dependent or personalised to whatever we come up with the brand strategy and design. If we think creating a streaming media like YouTube channel or a podcast would help her generate run awareness, then we'll do that. Or if the coach is already doing content, we help we help them in content repurposing. We have this service called content a million where we launch, edit and repurpose content into different forms to maximise the time and effort invested to that one content. And so that that's basically our core services. But in summary we mainly do personal branding and personal marketing.

Personal Branding is basically discovering what makes you unique, and you know using that to get known by the people who need to know about you.

Personal Marketing is the conscious and proactive effort to create and control the narrative around your personal branding.

Ian Paget: It's fantastic. One question I do have. How do you go about working out an individual’s why?

Jozelle Tech: Well the thing is when I do client calls like brand discovery. What I'm doing Ian is I’ve always want to do business with eat their own cooking, like you're doing this service, you must do it for your own business, for your own self and use yourself as your social proof. And so with working out and figuring out your why I get to talk to them how I get to figure out mine, and believe me figuring out the why is one of the hardest but the most fulfilling thing about brand strategy because it's really knowing who you are, what is really important to you. And so when I'm trying to figure out my clients why, we boil down to the purpose like why are you doing this, who are you doing this for? We are trying to list down reasons and statements not just about the business per se, but also for personal reasons, like with me, whenever people ask me why I work hard, then I say, I want to give back to my mom. Why I built my company, I would say I would want to give opportunities to different abled people like me, and then why I build personal brands, then, I'd say I wanted to give chance to coaches to really spread their stories online, but while all of those are through, you know, when I looked into the deepest branches of my heart, I think I realised that my biggest why is just we need to have freedom and independence. And so I let my client really talk throughout milestones, achievements and stories of their life until we get the pinpoint okay, which is the direction for us to get to figure out your why, your purpose in actually doing this business because with purpose you will definitely get the profitability of your business.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I think you've answered that really well because anyone listening to this that necessarily hasn't sat down and thought out their why, and I'm going to be transparent, it's still something I think about because I'm really into marketing and branding and all that sort of stuff, figuring out that why is really hard. But I like how you are basically listing out all of the things that are important, and that can help you to narrow it down in the way that you did to… you mentioned about freedom, creating freedom. But I think one of the main things, a lot of people might just answer money, like they do it for money, but actually why do you want the money? And that opens up more bigger things that are actually meaningful in some way and gives you… I think having the purpose, like you mentioned about you are wanting to… I can’t remember how you worded it, but basically be a role model for other people with disabilities which is admirable and that type of thing will drive you to keep going, and it will also help you to structure the type of content and things that you do that you might not have previously have thought about and stuff like that, it's a really important thing.  I think it's good that you do that. Anyway, we've been speaking for about an hour and I think this has been an amazing conversation, really inspiring, you have a really inspiring story. And yeah, I've really enjoyed speaking with you, so from me and everyone listening, thank you so much for coming on and for being so transparent, this has been fantastic, so thank you.

Jozelle Tech: Thank you, thank you so much Ian. And I think this is my first interview from Europe, for someone from Europe. And this is such a great opportunity and I thank you so much for the friendship that we have been building over time on Facebook. I love the fact that finally we are talking live.

Ian Paget: Yeah, we finally got a chance to speak because we've been chatting for ages, but we've never actually got like on a call. I find out with a lot of my podcast guests, you know, like a lot of people like I've known for ages and it's like why haven't we spoken on a call? Because yeah, you can't always meet up because of distance and stuff like that, but you can at least have a call and podcast seems to be a good opportunity for that. So it's been great to get to know you a bit more as well and be able to share that with other people that's listening to this.

Jozelle Tech: Thank you. Thank you so much.