Talking Logo Design With Aaron Draplin

Aaron Draplin: I come from a family, my dad was a big doodler. He was always doodling and making notes and drawing and had awesome handwriting and my mom was really creative with her making baskets or just the way the house was decorated. We had the coolest most beautiful Christmas trees, that's something that I'm really thankful for. Because your house can be beautiful, your life can be beautiful. And here is ... there's just this weird puzzle-like quality to making this little mark and the curiosity that I have when you're just sketching and playing.

I mean, it's real easy to say just jump in and start drawing, but one part that gets missed in either that Linda video or some of these SkillShare things is like, you know what, if you called me, Ian, and you said, "Listen, I want to hire you for a logo for Logo Geek." And I'd say, "Okay, well let's talk about this, let's talk about your competitors, where you are, how long you been doing this, what do you want to be." All these things that I'm trained to go and mine out of a client, that gets glazed over. I don't just jump into paper or definitely not just jump into Illustrator.

Ian Paget: Okay, can we go into that. In terms of the research you're doing from a process point of view, what I tend to do myself is I send over a data gathering questionnaire as a starting point and I use that to understand a little bit more about the client, the project target audience and so on. How are you going about doing this? Is it just a physical conversation?

Aaron Draplin: Yeah, in my experience, I stay away from making them work any more than they have to because I don't want to turn this thing into a job for me or for them. So the idea that, listen, I've had the cookie cutter briefs come into me where you can just tell that they changed my name and a couple bullshit objectives and there's no heart behind.

They're just it's an RFP, it's a whatever and you can just tell it's some account person putting this thing together off of a form and that's fine, but the last thing I want to do is add to that shit. So, instead I like to trick people, get them on the phone and I'm feverishly taking notes, they never know this. If they come into my shop and I say, "You're here in Portland, come into the shop, let's play with some things, let's sit and talk." And that's how I break the ice.

Because what I want them to see is that first of all, I'm not your traditional face or person or body or whatever the hell and either is my shop or my momentum or whatever and I want them to tap into why I'm so excited about being alive and just doing this job. So see, I'm really careful with turning things into something where someone's going to be like, "Fuck, I don't want to have to fill this thing out." Because I've sent those things and they came back with one word answers.

Ian Paget: So are you trying to make the experience more fun?

Aaron Draplin: Well, I trick them. I'm getting my questions, but I'm not turning it into another actionable fucking item they don't want to deal with, you what I mean? I don't know if that's making sense, but it's no different than someone coming to me and being like, "Okay, here we are in this thing, let's kill the whole excitement of this because we need you to become a vendor." 19 pages later, you've just lost some wind in the sails.

So, okay, we have to be professional, but there's a way to do it under the radar kind of. And a lot of that just comes down to a conversation just to say, "Hey, what are you thinking? Where do you see guys?" And I'm collecting that stuff, but they won't really even know that they're working at that point because I make it or try to make it this thing where I have examples to show. I mean, I went and did my research, I went and took a look at who they are.

My best stab at what the space looks like they're in. Because the idea, it's really simple stuff, it's reciprocal. It's like if everyone's going black and white mono this, mono colour, let's go full colour. If everyone this month has deer antlers and shit, don't put any deer antlers on your outdoor logo. If everybody is ironic in your space, how about be as straightforward and no bullshit. Or what if everyone us so straightforward, well then how about let's get weird.

So, these are simple things just to challenge them with because basically what we're doing is we're just trying to find a target. And that target sometimes can just be me doing what I do which is they want either a thick line logo or something they pick off of one of my logo posters or something. We want one of those for us, well I'm not going to make them the same thing. It's going to draft off it, but it's going to be theirs, it's going to be theirs, the colour story is going to be theirs. Whatever little twist or lack of twist to the type is going to be all theirs.

I'm really careful to remember, this is for them, it's not for me. It's not for my portfolio, it's not for me to champion, I'm always nervous to show work on my Instagram because I don't want to take it out of context. The best way to show it is to show it working. So a couple days ago I put up some logos for a friend I did in Burlington. It's a little guy called the Hungry Pea Kids Catering and the other one was called the Hungry Pea Kitchenware, a little heart leaf thing.

And I just want to show them, I want to get them out into the world, I want people to click on her link and this is a friend who's doing a catering service for kids' birthday parties around new England, Burlington, Vermont and beyond and she's already booked up. Now, I didn't help her do that, but once they got her materials going, see, this is what I love about this stuff, it's like we knocked out what she need to have. A nice little logo on a nice little card, she started give those to friends, friends gave them to other parents and she's a business now. This is happening, right?

Was that because of me? No, it's because they had an idea, I am one component, it's not for me. She has to wake up, it has to be versatile for her to use either the rest of her life or lets just say for a couple fun years and just be realistic about these things. Because it's really easy to go down the rabbit hole of, "Oh, the client changed it to this and they picked the shitty one." Well, first of all, why'd you show them a shitty one? Second of all, sometimes they're just going to lead you into a bad place, a place you're not into.

But if they love it, who's to say that doesn't work for them? At that point, who are we designing for? Our egos or the problem at hand? So, I don't know if that sounds too convoluted or whatever, maybe I'll stop talking for a second, but the idea is that process, sometimes I can nail it in a day and that makes people uncomfortable. Other times you're working for your buddy or Spencer Tweedy and I say, "You know what, I had a couple things this afternoon, take a look." And we were already cooking.

Now granted, it took us six months because he's on tour, he's in college, he's a son, he's a brother, he's all sorts, boyfriend, I don't know, he's all sorts of things in his life in Chicago. Well, we could have done it in a week, but no, he takes a couple weeks off, I hear back, a couple days later, it starts to stretch out. But what if it's my buddy who comes in here and he needs it done over the weekend? I love that stuff, let's do it. Get your check book out, you're going to pay me to give you my weekend.

What else would I have been doing, I would have been doing, I would have been in here figuring out merch or cutting down boxes into recycling or whatever the hell I do with the rest of my life. But in that instance, someone coming in, they're in a little bit of trouble, the time crunch, I do a lot of those things. I love the puzzle, is there a process for that? It just comes down to doing a quick chat, getting some sketching going, pushing some things around, having them come back the next day and saying just take a look at this.

Just simply looking at what your type is right now and could be this way, here's how this might be a little more successful in the places that you really matter which is Twitter, Instagram and I don't know something else digital. You weren't even thinking about that, that's what we got to think about. One out of a thousand times you're actually going to hand a business card to someone, 999 times of those interactions, it's someone scrolling past you, where do we matter?

And that kind of shit, that gets to the problem real quick and I love that stuff. I love to see them go, "Oh yeah, this is really simple, but man, that's maybe what I needed." Or, "It's really complex and here's how we simplify it for these smaller places and then here's where it explodes at full force." Well, that's only on a t-shirt or a sweatshirt, you know what I mean.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I know what you mean. A logo, it needs to be versatile so that it can work in lots of different instances. Now, I want to ask you, in terms of presenting your work, in your book Pretty Much Everything, I noticed that when you present designs to a client, you're sharing a lot of different options. And over the past few years, I've spoken to a lot of different designers and I don't think I've ever seen anyone present as many as what you do.

I mean, based on the example in your book, I can see that you're presenting in some cases over a hundred different logos. Now, I understand based on the content in your book that you tried the pour and approach of sharing one or just a couple of different options, but for you that hasn't worked. So, I'm just really keen to understand what's the reason why you show such a wide range of logo designs?

Aaron Draplin: Well, sometimes, but see here's the deal. By showing them a wide range, I'm not showing them anything that I don't think would be successful. You can show thick and thin, you can show thick thick, you could show thin, I mean whatever, you're just getting a feel for reactions. Because people, I'll say things like, "Hey, go out and look at your world, what Twitter accounts do you really like and why?" Because that's where they get to see it living in a really tricky space. You're swiping past it, that's where your day starts, that's where your day ends, you pick your phone up, you put your phone down.

So, the idea that I can get them comfortable thinking in that space then showing it living in that space, you start to make some decisions, you know what I mean. Instead of it just being floating with a nice rationale on a white page, that's not necessarily, of course I do that stuff, but then the next page you'll see it on a black background to see how it reacts to the darkness, just darkness. Then the next page it shows it at the size of it's tiny and the idea of showing a lot of things, it's case by case, first of all.

It's not like every time I jump in there, there are 60 things, there have been presentations where I showed 120 things because I just said, "You guys, I'm having so much fun with this character or this little piece, just so you know." I've had that also happen when I show 82 things and they only saw the first page and they were so excited with the first page they were like, one through six, we love number three.

Ian Paget: I guess my concern would be doing this, how does the client choose when there's so many to select from. It's why I personally prefer to show between three and five options for example. How are you going about helping the clients narrow down those options to one?

Aaron Draplin: I mean, I provide a rationale and say here's why you're seeing these things. You showed me this, here is a gentle riff on what I discern you might like about what you showed me and I reflect it. And they go, you know what, that's just not going to work for us, but at least we went there. See, they might look tight, but they are variations, they are quick things. The fun part about this, like I said, sometimes people only open up the first, they don't even know there are 16 other pages with three on each page, they don't even know.

They're so used to people bringing them four things and saying pick one, that breaks my heart. I want them to see page 17, I want them to play with page, I say the word play, go play with these. Because what they'll see is they'll go, "Man, we don't know why we like this little snippet here." And then I take those and I work against that because then you've got ownership, see?

Now, it's like a funnel. You drop a bunch of shit in the top and somewhere these things bang around, some come together, some go apart, something pops out at the end. And when I make a brief and I say, all right for my estimate, it is four to six different directions and each one of those directions you'll see variations on that, either theme or style or something, whatever, that's just me being protective of my time. But man, sometimes I can nail it in one or two pages and then I'll just explain there's something happening here, but as part of my obligation to you guys, hey, let's go try a couple other curve balls.

But see, that can be dangerous. Other times it takes a while to hit something, to where they really feel it's theirs. I'm just really careful to play this game of "No, I think that's the best one." I did a logo for a guy and I don't want to mention it because it was a little weird, but he jumped into the illustrator and started to tinker on it. And it hurt because I had shown him more successful options, but at that point it was just like, hey, if you want to play expert, you be expert. I've already been paid, you have to live with this, man. Here's where this thing lives the best. I can show it to you 10 times, but if that's the, because he wants that ownership, I can't really battle it.

He's using it, it's out there, it's an audience of two at that point. It's me and him going "Well, are you sure you want to do that?" But I said, "Well, here's why this is more successful this way." But it didn't matter. And that's where you have to go back to this weird thing, I'm not designing for me, I'm designing for this person. I'm not designing for my ego, I'm designing for the problem they need to solve. If that's what looks right to his eye, then we're going with that. And in the end, it's still something that's a little bit sore for me because I had shown him more successful options.

Ian Paget: I think it's really good to hear that from you as I know a lot of designers experience the exact same problem. I've had this myself a number of times and try to recommend the best option and explain why one solution is better than another based on my experiences. But like you said, it's not always possible and it can be tricky sometimes.

Aaron Draplin: It's tricky because it hurts. Like you know in your little heart of hearts that whatever you've made them is going to be so successful and there's no way they needed to make that twist, even if it was ... I've had to make the twist and it looked better. It was like, hey, we're in this together. I'm working for you, I'm looking up, I'm not looking down at you, my minions you better pick the right logo, never. I'm looking up and I'm saying, you hired me, I am your divining rod. I'll help you get there. You want to take it out of my hands and keep going, that's on you.

And there's all kinds of little ways to do that. It's a weird thing, but you know what, I'll just say it. It sounds goofy, but that happens to Aaron Draplin, I'm sorry to be all third person, but that happens to probably you too.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it does and I know even Pentagram Partners have the same issue.

Aaron Draplin: Of course it's called being a human. And let's see, who the hell is really struggling out there, let me see if I can't ... Young Jerks out of Brooklyn, Dan Cassaro and these two, these are terrible people. I know they're struggling, but young up and comers, I know what happens to those guys too on some level. And when you look at their work and you go, man, every single thing those two make, I love, I just love it. Because I'm messing with them, but I'm fans of Dan and Dan, they're buddies, it's not like I'm christening their firstborns yet, yet. I have not been able to hold their firstborns yet, but I talked to them a couple times a year.

But I watched their work and the stuff's beautiful. They're offering this wit and grit and stuff and I'm sure they're killing it, but you know what, I'm not really concerned about that. Every time I see their work, it's awesome, but I'm betting at the biggest of the big, they're dealing with that too because it's just ingrained in the process. It's no different than when your contractor comes and builds out your new kitchen and you wanted the line on the cupboard to do this and he made the line this way, whatever.

Ian Paget: I'm aware that you do a lot of free work, what's the reason for that?

Aaron Draplin: See, how do you get a fun job where people trust you to do the logos that I do now if they're not seeing other things. So, how do you get that job to show off later on if they ... I just made my own shit. For myself, for buddies, for stuff, sometimes for money, sometimes it's because it was fun, someone would see that thing and then go, "Whatever that is, we dig it." They have no idea it was just me playing around on a Friday afternoon like I will be this afternoon.

And in a weird way, that's how you manifest a life in design or a life almost tricking clients to thinking you are bigger than you are. No, you're showing what you want to go do.

Ian Paget: I've personally found myself that people will choose to work with you based on what you show, so you need to do the kind of work that you want to be doing and put that in your portfolio even it means doing some voluntary design work.

Aaron Draplin: On a bigger note, the idea that that person comes back to you and says, "Oh my god, we took off after we built this little, we didn't have anything." I mean I don't do anymore of those, very, very seldom. I do a lot more just, I just like you guys, I'll just make you something, how about that? If it explodes, put my name on a brick when you guys build the big corporate whatever, if it doesn't explode, it's probably not going to, well oh well. But sometimes I just help friends, I'm open to that.

I meet way more people who have a nice hashtag to say I don't work unless I'm worth this much, well it's just not going to be that way. You're not going to get paid what you're worth at your cool job and you're not going to get paid what you're worth even freelance. Sometimes you're going to make more than what you're worth, sometimes the job's going to pay you more, you know what I mean, it's a rollercoaster.

And I'm open to sometimes when it dips down and I can smell that it's just a fun job to work on, I do those all the time and who would even know. The fun part is when you stack a couple of those up and someone sees one and says, "We liked what you did for that band, we're a band, our budget's five grand for this record." Well, that's how you got the job. You see what I'm saying?

And I've met people that have debated me on that shit and I just stopped them and go, "Okay, then you're right and I'm wrong, you have your life, I have my life, is your house paid off? It isn't? Okay, mine is. Is your Volvo paid off? Oh it isn't? Well mine is. My appendix is, I'm not trying to ... I paid my appendix off."

Ian Paget: I don't understand how people can argue with that and I found myself that the type of work that you show in your portfolio is the type of work that you will attract. I mean, myself, not everyone is aware of this, but I've worked on websites, I've worked on illustrations, even quite fun computer game artwork and animation, lots of different things, but here, today, I want to work on logos. So when I started Logo Geek, I did a lot of logos free or for very small amounts of money just so that I could start to build up a portfolio so that I could show people so they would attract potential clients.

And now here, today, I'm able to charge what I'm worth for logo projects. Now, do you have any tips for how you choose who you're going to do free work for?

Aaron Draplin: Yeah, first of all is the person that you're working for, can you tell it's a nefarious thing? Hey listen, if it's another one of these we're a big corporation and we're going to give out a $50,000 award to whoever wins the logo and the other 49,000 people who tried to get the logo, they don't get squat, that's not ethical.

Ian Paget: You got to love logo contests. So many designers out there are joining in doing free work in the hope that they might win some money, but the reality is that it's damaging the design industry and it's almost slave labor.

Aaron Draplin: So okay, so let's just get that shit real clear because that's not apples to oranges or oranges to apples to what I'm doing. That's not even close. First of all, you can't pay your mortgage with free work, right? You can't pay your mortgage. But here's the deal, it's like I have been that guy that had to go pitch for a job where they said, "Hey, you're going to try this." About three months ago, we had a deal where I got this job. They called me and said we like what you do, you've been recommended to us, I showed them work, I showed them a little portfolio and they said great. We have a really quick turnaround, the budget is 5,000 bucks and great, so I got rolling.

I thought I got the job, it was really fast. They knew who I was and knew what I did, I showed them proof of making logos and working for things, that I could confidently handle this thing. And then I call on Monday, this is on a Friday, I work over the weekend, I call on Monday to say, "Hey, let's just do a quick check and if this thing is due by this next first bunch of stuff next Friday, I want to make sure that I'm on the right little roads." And we've got a quick discussion and she says, "Yeah, that's great, all the submissions are coming in Thursday or Friday." I said, "What do you mean all the submissions?"

Now nowhere, nowhere in that first email did it say you are competing for this. So I just stopped her and I said, "So how many people are involved?" "We've got about four or five." And I said, "Okay, so are you paying four or five people $5,000 for their time." And she said, "No, whatever one we like the most, we award the job to them." And I said, "So, okay, how much is my time worth trying for your job because basically I'm just giving you free ideas."

Now that is different than when a heavy metal band comes into my office who has no money but I've known for 10 years, I listen to their records and they're like, "Dude, we don't have any money, dude, whatever." I don't give a shit. I just look a them and say, "I know you're good for it, there's a job to be done here." They're not trying 19 different agencies. See, in town here, when Nike would do these things, you were paid just about as much just to try for the job with that first little round of exploration, you were paid for that round, that's ethical. That's big Nike, that's ethical, they have the money to do it.

So, I had to tell that person, "Oh man, I've already got awesome shit to show you guys and I'm not showing it, I'm out, see you later." And then I get this real nice email like, "We're so sorry, we didn't know what we were doing." Well of course they don't. Some marketing person told them this is how we do these things. You know what, who is to say that at that point I'm not competing for that shit. If you think I'm the right guy, I will get you through all the different doors and the dark halls and get you to the light. That's my job to do that.

But the idea that we're just going to be a bunch of us trying, they're just getting that many more options for free. But what I tell a young kid, why not go for it. I saw something for Gander Mountain which is a big sporting goods store, I don't necessarily agree with that. I had a lot of people writing me and saying, "Aaron, they're offering $50,000 if you win the Gander Mountain logo." I said, "Well, what about all the people that don't? They're just giving away free logos, they're giving away free time." Well, if you're 22 years old, shit, go for it, but you're giving away free work. But it's fun to roll the dice sometimes, that's not the same thing that I'm doing here.

A design industry that can come to me and say, "Well, that guy just works for free." That's not the same shit, so people have to get that right. And I'll just stop right now and I'll say, man, that Rocks and Road logo you did, oh man.

Ian Paget: Wow, I'm so happy to hear this.

Aaron Draplin: Listen Ian, I'm just going to say it, stay the fuck out of Portland Oregon, I don't need you messing with my stock price, I don't need you here as a threat because look at this, man.

Ian Paget: Oh, that's made my day, I'm so happy to hear that. It's really made my day to hear that from you. And I know when I was working on that one, I thought you probably would like it because of the style I've used.

Aaron Draplin: Well, you know what, when I go to that thing, it just looks smart. It looks smart and I don't know the first thing about cyclacrosse versus mountain bikes, but when I walk up to this thing and I go whatever Rocks and Road is, it just instantly looks smart. Now, that's a compliment but it's more like you start to put those guys around their competitors and you're going to see how it changes the way people come and look at the other things around them. So, listen, before I just go and say it's even good or bad, I have to go read about what you were trying to solve.

See, that's one thing that always freaks me out is people love to weigh in, all the experts come out and it's just amazing to me. I'll see some of the nastiest comments in the world and then I go click on their logos or their link and I see the work they're doing and it's garbage.

Ian Paget: I'm a big advocate myself of understanding goals before critiquing any work. I mean, people out there, designers includes, tend to jump in with negative feedback about a logo in particular without knowing anything about the project.

Aaron Draplin: But you know what, they're the expert in that one little ... and I don't need to go and say, "You know what, shut up. Until you can start making stuff as consistent as this Ian guy, shut your mouth." But I don't need to say that. I don't need to go play that game of I guess they call it punching down, but man, it always gets my go because there is some simple math here. The nastier the comment divided by the angle of the dangle multiplied by the hypotenuse of the coefficient equals a shitty portfolio every time.

But then you see him them six months later and you see the work they're doing and you're just like, well, it was a kid just making stupid comments. But no, you give them weight and you say no, they're trained to come after you. So I don't know, that stuff's always weird.

Ian Paget: I think some people just like to make a comment without really thinking.

Aaron Draplin: Whatever the hell it is, it's just nastiness. What if I roll up on some kid's website and let's just say I don't like any of his work, but somewhere I knew he's taking care of a family, he's paying his bills, he's keeping himself insured and healthy, that is a great story, that is a great story. Because he's handing off logos to people, maybe I think I could have done them better or my process is different or maybe this is boney or maybe this is really beautiful, but that's not my space to go and leave a ... if you're leaving those nasty comments like that, what's it say about your own life.

It's too easy to go poke a hole in someone after that because then you go at it as this adversarial thing, it's just a weird thing. I've made my mistakes, I've said things years ago on my website, I don't like the work of so and so and then I found out so and so was reading it and they were pissed, I'll never do it again.

Ian Paget: I've done this exact same thing myself. I made a negative comment about a logo and within about five minutes thanks to social media, I discovered that the person that worked on the logo had seen my comment. And it just made me realise that it's unfair and that there's a human being behind everything that we see and I don't know, it's just not right to publicly make bad comments about anything.

Aaron Draplin: Luckily the world that I was either operating in or whatever coming up was a world where it doesn't take fives minutes. People might not even ever really notice it, this kind of shit. So, the idea that that's the new world we're in and if you can't say anything nice, don't say a goddamn thing at all, it applies sometimes because the context, you can just take it out. Listen, there are days when I see things and I just like, "Oh, that is just bad, it's just dumb, whatever." But I don't need to go and hurt some kid, I don't need to go ... a lot of that comes from being in this weird position where people come after me and you go and you click on their link like I said, you're just like I see why.

All their shit's derivative and their frustrated and my goofy little poster is selling more than theirs this month, well, whatever. I've had guys come up to me, this is amazing, come up to me at any of these talks I've done, I was in Dallas last year, this one floored, a guy came up to me and he looked me right in the eye and he goes, "I didn't think I'd like when you met you." And I went, "Well, why?" And he goes, "Because I'm jealous of what you do." And I go, "Well, do you like me?" And he was like, "Yeah, you were great, I had fun, I learned this, you gave me this tip." Sat through one of the workshops or something and I said, "I'm a human being man. Whatever you're reading, that is me. There's no act."

Ian Paget: On that topic, as an outsider, you have one hell of an impressive brand to the point that even you as a person is identifiable. I can imagine a little character, one with an orange hat, a jacket and so on, was that a happy accident or have you fabricated that look as part of your brand identity?

Aaron Draplin: I would let any rat kid who just knows me answer that, of course. I mean, there was no game plan to create a character. I think you react to what you're around. I mean, if you can see a character of me with an orange hat and the size of a water buffalo and a dirty Car Heart jacket and blah, blah, blah, well no, I work hard, jacket's all grown up because they were affordable and we used to work outside in them and stuff. Whatever, that's just where I grew up.

But is that a caricature because listen, should I say, "Well, I can think of a little figure in a little soup coat and they're smart and they'll let you know they're smarter than you." Well that's fine because that's the cliché I run into all the time and that's fine, that's life. Let people just be comfortable. No, you react and I want people to be able to come right up to me, I mean I'm going out there, I don't need to be any more difficult in my life. I want a kid to be able if he wants to come up and talk to me about making logos, I'll talk to him about it or having a business.

A lot of the things that you see and remember those things aren't really made for a client, they're made just because I like to make a little watermelon patch. I want to make a patch that just says watermelon, I've never seen one that just says watermelon. Like last night I showed that because I'm so excited to get it back because it's going to be fun, I love watermelon. There's no brand or maybe it's just for the DDC, but why can't we just make fun little things. That maybe what's going to happen is an eight year old is going to pick that up at some little thing and be like, "Mom, I love watermelon too." And that's why we're doing this shit.

So see, I read the comments and when some kids say, "Oh, another bullshit about his dad or another bullshit about thick lines." Well, yeah, but you know what, it's not even for you. This is just because my nephew he likes this and I made him a little fun little logo. People don't even know that part of it. A kid last night wrote something, it's so weird, "When you do this, it's awesome. If I did this, people would say it's shit." What am I supposed to say to that? "Well, get ready for a life of shit man, you've got it all figured out. What if you just went and did it and people dug it, but we'd never know because you don't show it."

Listen, it's a weird world and I'm just trying to have a life I enjoy, I'm trying to be an ethical person. If I'm on the clock for no money, I work my ass off. If I'm on the clock and I just did a job for, well, the company that makes iPhones, I can't talk about it, but you would never even know what it is. I'll never talk about it, but I did it, but no-one would know that shit and I was a good worker and I did my job and I'll never be able to talk about it and I'll be able to smirk when I see it, but that's called being a designer.

Ian Paget: I'm going to keep an eye out for that to see if you can recognise your style.

Aaron Draplin: Good luck my friend because it was interesting things because, now, I'm on the defence right now because it's like this, there is no style to what I did. You might be able to recognise it, but no, that was being appropriate for the client. And second of all, the biggest client in the world, when they speak, you listen. I use their shit every minute, while we're talking right now, I've used them my whole life. Whatever little fold or flap or little contribution I made, what if I'm not even allowed to go put that in my little roster of clients, I'm okay with that because I will find thins.

When Spencer's little company comes out, I'll show that with just as much ferocity as I show the time that I got to work and remember, removed 94 people for Mr. Obama when I got to work for Barack Obama, his administration, me and my buddy Chris Glass. I will show both with the same ferocity. They're in the same list, you don't know that one was paid nothing and that's Mr. Obama and there's the one that was paid just a little tiny little bit and that was Spencer. You won't even really know the ones that were paid the big bucks, you'd never know. I don't need to talk about that, I'm trying to do good work.

Ian Paget: That's an inspiring way to look at things. Now, I have one last question for you. I've been following you for quite some time, I have your book which is crammed full of incredible work, your training videos and tutorials have gone viral. You designed products including Field Notes which have been hugely successful, you've worked with the biggest clients in the world including Barack Obama. You've achieved what most designers can only dream of and it sounds like a lot, especially for someone that's just starting out.

I'm curious, was this all planned or has it been the consequence of lots of small steps over a number of years?

Aaron Draplin: It's really weird right now because all these years later, when you put it into those really nice words like that, it does sound a lot bigger than it really is. And that's just because I know precisely exactly what I'm up against, but when you put a Barack Obama into the mix like that, you have to understand, I was hired by a group out of Chicago who was there, I was hired by a group in D.C. who was hired by the White House or whatever. So there's a lot steps to get that, it's not like he called me or something, "Hey, Barry, let me see what I'm doing this weekend."

But now, the fact is, yes, my buddy Chris Glass and I worked on this thing for Mode Project up in Chicago so I'm very careful to talk about those layers. But the perception with this stuff, it takes off and the idea that there's been three really successful and I'm really proud of the SkillShares because I think they're fun. That's the main thing is that they're fun, that anyone can jump into them. Because there's been those or all of these shows, you have to understand all of those things, they weren't supposed to happen. There was no game plan.

It's like icing on the cake, it's like how much more icing can there be because the cake was baked so long ago. It's not a bigger cake, it's still the same shitty little cake and it's like a three inch, four inch deep cake by what about eight inches wide. So you have to understand, it's like I'm always winging it and I'm always trying to do my very, very best with whatever either professional opportunities have come along. Because if none of this happened, where you know who I am and not a lot of kids ... if the book never happened, I still had a really good life working with buddies, making my own brand, thumbing my nose at the big things at the world and I still had a really good run.

Everything else in the last I'd say six years, this wasn't planned. So I'm just trying to enjoy it. If everything in life is an arc, at some point you die, at some point you slow down from working, at some point some kid on the other end of a tweet or something, they're just not concerned with what you're doing. I've seen all sides of that now and jokingly I'm always saying, "Oh man, today's the last day of this bullshit and that's it, it's been a good run. Here I go, I'm going to go into the woods and die in obscurity.

And it's been great and I thank everybody around me and then a day later a couple more calls for a couple more conferences come in. So, I mean I really appreciate what you said. To do these things, to connect with you, to talk to people, to get up early and race down to the shop and I apologise for being a little late. It's really a bit of an attempt to right the ship because if some kid is listening to this right now and says, "I can never do what that guy did." Well that's bullshit, yes you could.

It's going to take hard work, it's going to take a weird sprinkle of luck, it's going to take being able to say thank you to the shittiest of clients and the very best of clients because there were some of both. And somewhere, like you said, small moves definitely add up and that is the best way to put this because nine out of ten things, there's no way you would know about them. But see, I met too many people who would say I would never do those nine of ten things you do because there's no money involved, it's not cool, that guy's an animal, you know what I mean?

Ian Paget: I know exactly what you mean. We all clearly just need to keep chipping away and we'll hopefully all get there too. Well Aaron, it's been an honour to have you on the show and it's been really good to speak to you, you've shared a lot of great advice so thank you so much for being on the show.

Aaron Draplin: Ian, thank you for having me on here and thanks.