In this weeks podcast Ian interviews the super talented Alexa Erkaeva, who produces stylised logo designs and illustrations that gleam with character, which also come to life through effective use of animation.
In this interview we discuss how she first became a graphic designer despite not being able to attend university, what her logo design process looks like, how she animates her logo designs, how she gets clients, and how she’s able to connect meet other designers despite living in a part of the world where there are currently no design events.
Alexa is a graphic designer and illustrator based in Turkmenistan in Central Asia.
- Logo Lounge interview with Alexa Erkaeva.
- Alexa Erkaeva Portfolio Website.
- Alexa Erkaeva On Behance | Dribbble | Instagram | Twitter.
- Logo Design Love by David Airey.
- Chris Spooner’s Texture Brushes.
Below I have included an example of Alexas sketches (on the left) vs the final agreed design (on the right). These images have been taken from the Brave Bard project case study which details the process from start to finish.
Alexa Erkaeva Interview Transcription
Ian Paget: I understand that you’re a self taught designer. How did you go about learning graphic design?
Alexa Erkaeva: My father worked with hardware all of his life. Actually he is working at home right now too, so he fixes computers, and my mom, she is a software engineer so we always had a computer at home. I’m just telling you that in my country, there is still a huge problem with Internet access. So it was a privilege to have a computer and Internet around 20 years ago in Turkmenistan.
So, I always loved to draw and when my mom bought the CD with Photoshop, I started poking around and eventually I moved from paper to digital, and after the crisis and the nineties, maybe you heard about this? My Dad, he lost everything. He lost his business. And as a result, when I graduated from school my parents couldn’t afford to pay for my education. So the country defines a lot I would say. I can’t talk in details, but I started perfectly well and it was not enough to go to university in our country still. So I had enough free time to learn how to draw on a computer, and thanks to Internet, I could find any required information to learn things on my own. And that’s how I started.
Ian Paget: So, was that through watching things like youtube videos?
Alexa Erkaeva: Not really. There wasn’t YouTube videos when I started. There was something like tutorials, “how to make fire in Photoshop”, or how to make this, and how to make… It was mostly tutorials for the tools. You learn how to use the interface. So mostly it was like that.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I’m finding there’s a lot of self taught designers out there now and I think it’s much easier now than it was say, 10, 20 years ago when we both would have started out as graphic designers. So I just think it’s amazing what you’ve been able to achieve.
Anyway, I understand from other interviews that you’ve done that your first job was a design role at a marketing company. Since your actually had no formal education what was it that you was able to show them to get that job?
Alexa Erkaeva: Hmm. Good question. I asked my dad if someone needed an intern. So, he had a lot of people around in different companies because his job was computers. And at that time one of his friends, he worked as a designer at some advertising agency and he agreed to give me a trial. I was given a task to or attach a photo of horses, you know, it’s a thing in my country, everything about horses. So if I could find that thing now, I would blush with shame. It was ugh… but surprising the agency liked my work and hired me as a junior designer. So officially I was an assistant of that guy and in two months when I learned the new software, and got used to the work I started to receive regular tasks and a logical and normal salary.
Ian Paget: That’s amazing. Such a great opportunity. So just to clarify, was that actually a full time position?
Alexa Erkaeva: It was full time at the very beginning, but I was given small tasks, like I was an assistant of that designer, like clean this, cut this shape from… Small things like “do what I don’t want to do”. And then I started to get real projects and that’s all. I would say that after two months I did more work than him. He’s great. I’m just saying that there were more works on my side.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I understand. That’s similar to how I started out myself, I actually worked within a marketing team for a medical company and at first I was just given small bits and pieces. I mean it was things like leaflets and posters, but I remember that the other two were working on major corporate brochures. And what I was doing in comparison was just small bits. But, I know myself, when I worked as a Design Director, when we did hire junior designers, we would always give them low risk, small jobs or even fictional projects. And that was mainly just to see what they’re capable of doing until you can actually trust them. But I think that’s how most designers learn and I think it’s probably the best way to become a graphic designer when you’re just starting out. You’ve got to learn somehow and we all need to start somewhere.
Anyway, I wanted to ask you about something you mentioned in the Logo Lounge interview you did recently. You told a story of how everything changed for you once you met the best designer in your city who eventually lured you into joining his team, which really helped you to up your game. Can you talk through that time and share with us what it was that allowed you to actually up your game?
Alexa Erkaeva: Yes. The advertising agency I was working at they mainly focused on quite primitive design. The Turkmen market is small and most of the ads were quite trivial. For example, when we’re doing signs for local shops, our job was to fit on a banner as many goods as possible. So you can imagine how the end product look like. If there is a shop, you can put the cheese, eggs, bread, everything on this sign, and maybe small letters. Yes. It was like that. So nothing specific, there wasn’t any ideas. You just put the photographs. I had a computer at home and Internet was really good. My parents arranged this so I was often hanging out on some early social networks and I was a part of a few Russian speaking online communities.
And that’s where I met Vadim, my friend, he asked me to send my portfolio and I was kind of proud of it that I was doing these signs. I was a young girl who can do these things. But then I saw his works it was just another level. I felt like “oh, why did I send this thing, what did I do? and It’s okay. I like chatting with him a lot and he started to give me small tasks to do and I really liked it. I did everything, whatever he was saying related to the work because I was very interested because of his level and company’s who he was working with. I was so happy to get small tasks. It was a huge experience for me. I’ve never did something like that before. Only stupid things.
And in my advertising agency I was using Corel Draw and I started to learn illustrator just because of him cause he was working on Adobe illustrator, and he required me to prepare files in this extension. So, after three or four tasks, he invited me over for a chat to the company where he worked at that time. And the next morning, I notified my bosses at my work that I wished the quit. With my new job I made a lot of new friends, and most importantly new experience. That’s how it was, yes. A lot of friends. Not a lot, but all my friends which I have right now, the best friends, they’re all from that company. We still have beautiful, communication, good relationships and we still hung out. We are best friends.
Ian Paget: That sounds really good. It sounds like he mentored you and have the help and guidance he needed and he must’ve seen something in you because I know… you know when you look at young designers work you can always see when there’s something to them, and he must’ve seen that in you and nurtured that, and allowed you to the grow and develop. And I think if you are in the situation like you was where you’re working for a company that’s doing really mundane tasks, like those advertisements where there’s no actual graphic design direction where you’re not developing, it makes sense to move on. It sounds like you made the right choice personally and you gained a lot from that experience so I think it’s really good you did that.
I’m keen to chat with you about your logo design process because I know every single designer that I’ve spoken to on this podcast now, and we’re coming up to 40 episodes, every designer works in a slightly different way. So I find it really interesting to talk about their logo design process. You have a really unique style. When I looked through your work I can tell it’s your work, it has a really nice unique style. So I’d love to hear from you what your logo design processes is, if you can talk through that.
Alexa Erkaeva: Sure. I start to work only after I have discussed everything in great detail with the client thanks to my favourite book of David Airey. I love this book. I need to know as much as possible about the company and customers they focus on. Sometimes I may ask for references from my clients for better a understanding of the personal preference as well. I know I don’t have to attach to this, but I still considered personal preferences as well. Perhaps it’s unusual, but I don’t have unlimited number of revisions like most of my designer friends do, and I discuss the project to the point when a client has a clear view on what we are going to do so we don’t end up in a situation with too many wasted revisions.
So we discuss everything in detail. Although I can come up with more than one idea as a rule, I show to my clients the one which suits my vision the best. And I send sketches first. If it’s fine with the customer I work on finalising them, and of course I’ll make changes as needed. A couple more touches and here’s the final vector product the final revision. And it’s fine. I send out the files after that. Generally I will summon the thing that most of the details I get during the conversation, it helps a lot. It saves a lot of time later on. I don’t do many revisions. Thanks God. I don’t remember situations when I did many variations. Nothing like that. Maybe two or something like that.
So everything starts with the proper, great conversation. If you know the details about the project as much as possible. At the same time you have to learn something about your client as well. So, when you are set was this, then everything will go more or less smooth. So that’s how it starts.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I like what you said then about finding out personal preference because we have spoken about this briefly on the podcast before, but although you are designing for your customers target audience and in reality your customers requirements and expectations are actually totally irrelevant I agree that it’s important to find out your client’s expectations because at the end of the day, they are the one that’s going to be approving the work. So I think it’s good to find that out because generally when someone comes to you, they normally have some kind of expectation of what they are looking for. But if you speak to them and you find out that their expectations are totally off the mark and totally wrong for what they need, then you know early on you can have those conversations that that’s not the right direction. But because your client is the one that’s going to be agreeing what you do, it’s worth finding out what their personal expectations and preferences and basically what they expect from the project. And then you don’t get any nasty surprises where they don’t like your work or don’t agree with what you’ve done and so on. So I think that point was good.
Alexa Erkaeva: Also there’s one more thing. And it’s very important to understand if you can do this job and if you can offer the right thing. So during the conversation I also can understand this. So that’s how I actually, my agree or not agree to some of the projects also. That’s the thing.
Ian Paget: Sure. I understand. You’re basically aiming to find out if you’ll be a good fit. For example, if they’re asking for a style that’s outside your capabilities, or not something you’d want to take forward then you can turn away that project or just refer it on to someone else.
Alexa Erkaeva: Of course, because you spend more resources and time – all this converts to money. So if you got the job which you do for one month, then don’t expect to be right.
Ian Paget: Yeah absolutely. So, you mentioned that you present sketches and I know looking through your work that these aren’t just the stereotypical sketch on a piece of paper. These are sketches that you’ve done using some kind of app on your iPad or phone. I’m keen to ask you, what’s the reason why you show sketches? Because personally I don’t like to show you sketches. I know some people that do. So what’s the reason that you present sketches?
Alexa Erkaeva: Basically I work on complex logos, like you mentioned that it’s like mini illustrations, gaming logos, mascots and such, and mostly related to entertainment. And in many cases, showing the idea as a sketch saves a lot of time for me. I use a a tablet to do do them in Photoshop and raster images I prepare don’t look too different from the final vectors. So you can see some of the examples in my blog. So a client has a better understanding of the idea in the visual form. Also if there are revisions I add them when sketching. I prepare the vector file when the sketchers are approved. So if I work on a simple logo I skip the sketching phase and start in Illustrator. But if it’s something illustrative then I have to do sketches otherwise I will spend a lot of time. I will draw it vector and then show and if I need some changes or I have to revision the general idea, then I will spend a lot of time and it’s not productive. So that’s why I start to draw sketches in Photoshop and try to do them to look the same as finals.
Ian Paget: Yeah. So to speed up the process. I think it’s worth everyone checking what you mean by sketches, so what I will do is in the show notes for this episode, I’ll include a couple of those images from your blog and link to your blog so that people can go and check those out, because they’re not really sketches. They pretty much look like the finished thing. But you can see it’s been done by hand.
Alexa Erkaeva: Well, yes, but by hand it’s much easier to draw something I just ‘sketch’ ‘sketch’ and then that’s all, but when your draw the vector I try to put the curve in the proper size, so it’s the less dots on the graphics it takes much longer. So I prepare final files only when these sketches are approved.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I think it’s good that you take that approach with the type of work that you do because a lot of your logo designs are very illustrative and they’re a very specific style and if you’re going to actually draw those as factors it’s just going to take a lot of time. But like you said on an iPad, you can just take it out and quickly draw over, change things and experiment. So I think it’s good that you do that, especially with the type of work and the type of clients that you work with. So I like that.
I noticed that a lot of your work makes use of really nice textures and a lot of designers don’t always include textures and gradients and stuff like that in their work. But I think with your style it works really well. Can you talk through how you create that effect?
Alexa Erkaeva: Yes. Sometimes I use grain texture. It adds volume I think, especially to the solid colour. So if draw in illustrations, I just, just basic Photoshop dry brushes or dissolve mode. When it comes to vectors, the easiest way to make grain is by using vector brushes. It’s easy to create, but I found some awesome stipple shading brushes from Chris Spooner and now I recommend them to everyone. These brushes are the best. You don’t have to do anything. You just use them, and the final result is awesome. But, of course you can’t use too much grain in illustrator because you will kill your memory, RAM, and it takes a lot of resources. So sometimes if you add textures it adds some interesting thing to that object. Sometimes I use them, but I don’t put them on every single object. I know some people who put textures just to make the thing better but it won’t save the situation.
Ian Paget: Yeah. It’s not needed. It is. I think you’ve found a really nice balance with these textures and it actually adds a lot of character to the style of your work… and talking about character that actually leads on nicely to my next question for you. When scrolling through your portfolio I notice quite a few of your logo designs are actually animated which is something I rarely see in logo design portfolios. And the way that you’ve done it is really nice because it actually enhances your designs too. Can you talk through how you actually create those animations?
Alexa Erkaeva: When I work on a logo, I often imagine the interactive version of it. If I can develop the idea, I do it in Adobe Flash. I always keep telling myself it’s time to start learning After Effects, but I’m still working in Flash. So my level in animation is not high, but, whenever I can I try to create some simple loops. I believe that even a short animation can add more meaning and depth to a logo. That’s why I love collaborative projects with animators. You might say some projects like cute logos we created recently. Many people love it. Some of the guys who put their logos there, they were personal projects. They sold this work already. So this project has been really great, and it was so fun to do. I said to the animators, you do whatever you want. We won’t give you a scenario for our logos, you just create whatever you like. And the final result was awesome. We love it a lot.
Ian Paget: Yeah, they’re really great. I recommend listeners looking through your Instagram feed to see some examples. And what I’ll do is I’ll link to that in the show notes for this. Can I just ask, what files do you supply the client with when you animate the logo for them?
Alexa Erkaeva: It depends on their needs. I ask where they’re planning to use and I prepare the final files for them. I give them this FLA version, or PSD, you can put a movie in PSD file. Or I can give frames, or I can even convert and build it simply in After Effects, but I don’t know After Effects so well, but still I can prepare this. I can give any format.
Ian Paget: Sure ok. So it’s just a case of understanding exactly where the animation will be used and preparing the appropriate file format. So if say it’s going to be used in a video, then you can provide a HD video file, or if it’s going to go on a website, you can provide an animated Gif at the appropriate size and so on.
Here in the UK we have quite an active design scene, especially in the cities. We’ve got loads of events happening and places to meet and network with other designers. However, I understand in the country that you’re from, that there’s literally nothing. However, I hope that together we can work to change that, but I want to ask you, since there’s currently no gatherings of any kind, have you found a way so that you can still meet and network with other designers?
Alexa Erkaeva: Of course. Most of my designer friends live abroad, mainly Russian. I met all of them online. I don’t have any designer friends here, so when I started freelancing in 2016 I didn’t have any clue what should I do, so I began to searching for design communities. And within 2 years I found new great friends with different backgrounds, not only graphic design. To be more clear I met 90% of my friends online. The group of friends, which I mentioned before from this previous company and the rest, all there people are my online friends. And you know, I have a friend who I met in real life in Saint Petersburg just a year ago after more than 10 years of chatting. We chat every day. We have video calls, audio calls. She knows everything about me, what’s going on about my project, helps me a lot. I know everything about her, but we met only one year go. So I have a lot of friends like that. People whom I met just maybe two or one year ago. But before we were chatting for a very long time.
Ian Paget: I’ve been the same with a lot of my friends, especially my graphic design friends. In reality the companies I worked at, I’ve either worked on my own, or with one or two other people. I found it hard personally to meet other graphic designers, unless you are able to get to these events, but thanks to the Internet, there are communities and groups and forums and websites and there’s so many different places to meet and mingle with graphic designers and I think we’re a really lucky generation to have access to that. Cause I can imagine, if it was 20, 30 years ago it would be impossible. But now you know, if you have an interest in something very specific, no matter what it is, you can easily meet and mingle with other people.
And like you said, you can use things like WhatsApp, Skype, Facebook. Every single social media platform. It’s definitely a good way to meet people. And I like what you said about that person that you met, you’re speaking to them every day. You’re getting feedback on your work and stuff like that. So it’s really good that you have that. And I think anyone that’s listening that are in a country like your are, where there’s not many graphic designers or there’s no sense of community, and there would be areas like that in the UK and in the States as well that would have the same issue. Just go on the Internet and join something like the Logo Geek Community or other Facebook groups. There’s lots of different ways that you can meet and network with other graphic designers if there’s no events by you.
But one thing I think you should do, because hopefully there are other graphic designers, maybe you need to start something. Maybe you need to be the one…
Alexa Erkaeva: Like what?
Ian Paget: You know, actually start a meetup or something. Let people know the location where you will meet.
Alexa Erkaeva: In my country you mean? We don’t even have a book store. Where will I find designers here?
Ian Paget: I don’t know, maybe go on the Internet. I need to ask in the Logo Geek Facebook group if there’s anyone where you are or if there’s any…
Alexa Erkaeva: I know a couple of companies works, but I’m not sure that it will be interesting for me. So…
Ian Paget: Yeah, fair enough. I guess what I’m trying to get at, if you’re in an area where there’s nothing happening, be the person to start it. That’s the way I see it, because where I live here, I live just outside of Manchester, and in this actual area I’m not aware of any actual design groups or meetups. But I have started to get to know other people and I could take the lead on that, and you could take the lead on that. And I think anyone that’s in an area where there doesn’t seem to be anything happening, just start something. Let people know that you’re going to meet up once a month at that place and start building a little community of your own and then you know… there might be loads of people in your area that are thinking there’s nothing happening here.
Alexa Erkaeva: Actually there is one guy. I met him online. He’s said he’s from Turkmenistan. So we have one guy to add to the list.
Ian Paget: Yeah, just plan something. I’ve done this with people I’ve known here. We’ve all collectively got to know each other online and we’re like, okay, let’s, let’s meet up, and then you slowly create a group and that becomes more well known and then you can create events around and all sorts of stuff. So, I guess what I’m saying to you or anyone else that’s in an area where there is nothing, start something yourself, because I found that people don’t like to be leaders. They like to be followers. So there are not that many leaders, not, not many people are standing up and taking lead of it. So when someone does stand up and say, hello, I have a party over here or a group here, whenever it is, people go. So if there’s nothing where you are, create something, start that, start that movement, and bring that to your country and I think you’ve got enough of a following and an audience and reputation online to take that lead and start something.
You never know what might happen. But what I’m saying… I’m not saying that just to you I’m saying it to the audience as well, that if there’s nothing in your area, don’t sit down complaining about it, actually start it. Take lead on it.
Alexa Erkaeva: Yes. Maybe you are right right. Maybe I should try instead of crying.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I think you should. Instead of crying stand up, take lead and actually say, okay, I’m starting this event, find people invite them and just say, okay, every Tuesday at seven we’re going to meet here. It might just start off with one or two people, but the more that you promote it and push it obviously that will grow and then it become an event and then suddenly, two years down the line, three years down the line, you created the whole hub of your country for design. It’s exciting.
Alexa Erkaeva: You know, I will try.
Ian Paget: Yeah, you should. I really think you should be sure to let us know how you get on to. So anyway, moving onto my next question for you. What do you do to actively get logo design clients?
Alexa Erkaeva: I love this question because I listened to Jonathan’s podcasts where he was saying that most of his friends find clients on Instagram and I have the opposite situation. I think the best way is to promote your social profiles like Behance and Dribbble. We need Instagram because the more people see you, the more they trust you. So Instagram is a very important platform, but I don’t think that I even got one project. Not sure. The more followers you have, the more possibility that potential clients would not just an approach you. Every time I’m being featured in a Behance gallery, I get plenty of offers, emails, people write to me with some interesting stuff and it’s all the same for Dribble. People write to me as soon as my shot gets popular and, you know, about Instagram, recently I, I received lots of messages on Instagram. People write me, but most of these are like “are you making logos for free or you take money for this”
One guy wrote me a message, and he says that “I have a manufacturer, I produce tomato paste, and could you tell me the price for the logo?” First of all, I don’t tell the prices when I don’t learn the brief, but it’s okay, then we don’t have the conversation. But before I even replied to his message, he says the second one and where he says that “Oh, I’ve learned your works. And based on your experience, which is very great. I’m offering you $25, and $5 more for the urgency because I need the logo by tomorrow”. All the messages which I receive on Instagram, they’re like that. I don’t remember when there was something serious.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I’ve had messages like that too. I tend to ignore a lot of them as they’re just not serious leads.
Alexa Erkaeva: We need Instagram for our promotion, for the promotion of our portfolios, this is a beautiful social network. But I’m not sure that we can get serious clients from this. By the way, my friends, she said that she gets 50 of her projects, very good interesting projects on Instagram. How is that happening? I don’t know. My experience is like that I don’t get anything like people offering me $5 and they won’t buy anything from my shop.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I find it really interesting that you get your work from Behance and Dribbble. But you mentioned that you get the work when you get featured. Is there anything special that you’re doing to get your work featured or is it just a case of, doing good work and being lucky?
Alexa Erkaeva: That’s a very interesting question. We talk with friends about this. Sometimes they feature the works which may, I may say that I wouldn’t even notice this, but I don’t know how it works, but most of the cases they feature some interesting projects.
What you have to do is to try to create a beautiful presentation. It has to be a full project, you cannot put one logo and that’s all. If there is no proper identity, or anything like a case study, you may get featured. So if your project is full, you arrange everything beautiful, you… There is an article by the way, they say how to create projects and they recommend what you have to do so the beginners may learn a lot of things from there. But, I just try to put only full projects with a lot of content there. I don’t put one picture and that’s all, that’s for Instagram or Dribbble. Dribbble is one shot. You upload only a one shot and that’s all. That’s how you describe your project. But on Behance you have to do it properly. Sometimes I spend two weeks to arrange some projects there, so it requires a lot of time. But you may get a feature if you did everything correct.
Ian Paget: It sounds like it’s worth the time investment for you to do that, because if get loads of work when you when something gets featured, it’s worth doing that.
Alexa Erkaeva: The most interesting projects I get from Behance, the biggest and the most interesting are coming from Behance.
Ian Paget: That’s amazing. Anyway, we’re near the end of our time and I have a couple of final questions for you. Can I ask you what’s the most important piece of advice you’ve been given as a graphic designer?
Alexa Erkaeva: My friend Vadim, which I mentioned before, he told me one very important thing that there is no such a thing as “I don’t have an idea” or “I don’t know what to do”. He’s always telling me “you just sit at the computer and continue working. That’s how you come to the point. That’s how you find the ideas by trying the things. That’s how you do the thing”. Yes, there is such a thing like, I don’t have a mood. I may not want to work today, for example. I have to refresh myself, refresh my brain and everything. My mind. I have to just spend my time doing some home things. So maybe I want to draw or I want to go out. Yes. That’s something important. We all have to do these things. But when I sit at the computer, I’m just trying the things. For example, if I have to find a solution, I try the things. I see it and do the thing. If my ideas clear, I hope it’s clear because there are no such thing like a hint what to do… You have to jump on one leg and then the idea will just fall from the space. No. You sit and work, you continue working. That’s how you get all the things. Very simple advice.
Ian Paget: I’m not sure if you’re familiar with a guy called Sean Wes, but when I used to listen to his content, he always used to say, “just show up” and just by showing up, you get stuff done. So, if you want to be able to create something, the sheer act of actually just sitting down and making a commitment to getting on with it, you seem to get on with things. I think it’s good advice to have been given to just sit down and keep working through it. Going for a walk, it might help but it’s quite unlikely, you’re more likely to make progress by actually sitting down and trying to work through that.
By sitting down and trying to solve it, even when you’re struggling, that’s the only way that you’re going to solve that problem, so I think that was really good advice that you was given.
Alexa Erkaeva: Now we’re pretty much near the end of our time. I’m going to ask you one last question and it’s actually a similar question and I’ve asked everyone on this podcast so far as far as I remember. So if you could go back in time and you could offer your younger self some advice, what would that advice be?
I might disappoint you with my answer. I would tell myself don’t change a thing. Most of my life, you know, I’ve been dreaming that the time machine will be invented at last, and I would then use it to prevent some stupid act, unnecessary words. I will do everything to jump on this machine. There are things I wouldn’t want to repeat and remember, but on the other hand, I realise that without that experience, I wouldn’t have what I have right now and our mistakes actually help us to get more experience. Without mistakes life would have been boring.
Ian Paget: Yeah, I’ve found it really interesting that most people that I’ve asked have actually said pretty much the same thing, and it’s nice to hear. If there’s anyone out there that’s going through a tough patch or a hard time or they’re struggling, it’s useful to know that this is just part of your story and you wouldn’t be able to make that progress to the next level without having gone through that experience. So anyone that’s listening that’s going through a hard time, every single person has been interviewed on this that’s successful, they’ve been through that hard time. And it’s nice to hear that from someone like yourself and other people that have said the same thing. You have to go through that as part of your journey. Keep going and you’ll you’ll make it eventually.
Well, we, we’ve gone through loads in this. So, I got to say thank you so much for coming on, especially because I know that English isn’t your native language and you put a lot of time into preparing for this. So, thank you for doing that, so from me and everyone listening, thank you so much for coming on and for your time. It’s been fantastic.
Alexa Erkaeva: Thank you.
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