Designing More Than The Logo

Ian Paget: Ben, you've been on the podcast before. And previously we went through so many topics and that was a couple of years ago now. And I know we've had private conversations back and forth between us and I think a really good topic that I'd love to go into with you, and I think it's great that we can record this publicly so that other people will get something out of this, is to go into how you work with clients to offer more than just a logo. So I put together a couple of questions so that we've got some structure to this. So I think as a starting question, why do you feel that graphic designers should offer clients more than just the logo?

Ben Loiz: Right. Well, first Ian, I just want to say thank you for having me again. Yeah. I realise it's been, I think, about four years since our last time.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's been a while.

Ben Loiz: Right, right. So I think we'll have a lot to talk about. I'm really excited to both catch up and to talk about this topic. So your question is, why should designers offer more than just the logo? Well, clients have a lot on their plate and many times they can only see the thing in front of them, and sometimes the thing in front of is a logo. Sometimes they only see the need for a logo. The question is, will the logo solve the problem that they have, or even once they have a logo, a great logo, how will it be used and will it be used in a way that will help them? So it's helpful to move from the angle of just taking a request, or receiving a request at face value, to discovering what their need is and how you can best serve them.

And so, when we speak to a client, it's not merely about getting a new project or getting a new job, but what is the client need and how can my services help them? So then, a conversation begins and in this way you can really bring some benefit, bring help to the client with what you can offer. And so, maybe it's less about offering more than just a logo and more about getting to know the needs of the client, why they came and discovering together how you can best serve them. So I would say that's the maybe initial way that I would answer that question.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's an interesting one, because personally the bulk of my clients, and I think it's partly because of how I'm personally positioned, is they just come to me for a logo. I do have a handful of clients that do other stuff in general, the bulk of my clients do the logo and then away they go and they start using it. And I've had that experience where clients don't know how to use it. I can show them examples, but in general they plunk it in place. And I think something that you do well, and we can talk about this later, we discussed it briefly on our last interview, but one thing that you are very good at, and it's why I wanted to talk about this particular topic, is that in your portfolio, you are able to show how it's used in real life and always looks good, because you have worked with a client to actually offer those services.

So I think... So that we can continue focusing on that, you briefly answered this then, but I think you'll probably have more to say on this. So when the client gets in touch, I know I personally, they usually come to me just for a logo. And again, that's partly because of how I'm positioned in the market. How do you go about that initial conversation so that you're able to, say if they come to you for a logo, how do you go about selling more than just a logo? Because most of your clients look like you are providing a lot more than just a logo design.

Ben Loiz: Right. Well, I think to begin with, it's helpful to have a certain mindset to not come in to up-sell per se, because when we're trying to up-sell, they get it and no one likes to come for something and then the person they're coming to for the help tries to sell more. But it's more about having a discussion to understand what they need. In fact, sometimes when a client comes and asks for a logo, in their mind, they're envisioning something larger. Sometimes they're envisioning a brand identity or they're envisioning what they saw another company do, but they don't have the words to ask in the way that we would understand it. So we have to discuss and see where they're at. The initial conversation is really learning about them. We're learning about them, but they're also learning about what we do and what we can offer. So sometimes I may even ask if they're familiar with the distinction or the difference between a logo and an identity, and then I'm able to explain how limited maybe a logo-only project can be for their business. My studio normally... I rarely take on logo-only projects.

So this is part of the first conversation, is going from a logo-alone concept to a brand identity, and then showing how that brand identity, how those elements or this toolkit could be applied. And so, through these kinds of conversations, you're opening windows, you're opening doors, you're opening their eyes to see what this could be. As people who are designers, who are creative people, we have a lot of ideas and we can see things that many people can't see. Sometimes they have a vision for their company and what it should be in their heart. They can't visualise it, that's why they're coming to you. But we can, through discovery, understand their company envision and actually create what that future could be like. And so, I think the conversations at the beginning bring you there as you're learning more about their company. And sometimes maybe they just want to start with a logo or maybe they just want to start with a smaller visual identity.

Then it's really the things that happen as you're working together, which is all about building relationships, taking care of their needs so that you're bringing in an environment where the two want to continue to work together. So being helpful, being honest, being trustworthy, being transparent with your questions and answers, being on time, over-delivering when you're able to, keeping them up to date with what's happening in the project, even saying thank you after a project. All of these things create an atmosphere where they can envision continuing to work with you to develop and strengthen their brand. It's really creating a team environment or a partnership view, so that you have a future with them and not just a one-off attitude on either side.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think that partnership is definitely important. Just going back to some of the stuff that you said, you spoke about learning about them and I do something like that. I'll always ask questions, but I think since there's a range of different people listening to this, some that might not know what to ask, how would you approach learning about them? What type of questions do you usually ask on that initial conversation to understand who they are and what they might potentially need help with?

Ben Loiz: Well, I definitely try to get some background on their company. I think probably most of us would. Like what kind of company they are, what their hopes dreams are for their company. I try to understand why they're looking for a logo, whatever they asked for, why they're looking for that at that point, and what they hope it will accomplish for their company. How will this logo or this identity accomplish what they hope, where will it take them? And so, a lot of times with this you see that their dream and vision is bigger than what they're asking for will provide. So for example, they may want to grow in a certain area of their business, but we know as designers that a logo on its own is not necessarily going to help their business to grow in that way. We may put them visually in a place where they can stand next to their competitor and both look distinct, and maybe even look like a better option than their competitor, but there are other things that they need to do that can take them there. And if we can help them with those things, then we begin to have those discussions.

And so, maybe as an example. Maybe there's a company who does marketing on social media on Instagram, and you find out that that's one of the main places that they do their marketing. So you might ask them, "Oh, so how is it going? How is your current marketing going on Instagram?" And they may say that they're struggling, or they may say, "It takes me so long to develop a post. Sometimes I'm spending all morning thinking about what I should post." So that's outside of doing a logo, but it is something related to the application of the identity, the application. And so, now you know that there's this pain point, they're wasting a lot of time, they don't know what to post. And so, you may consider, "Well, if we work to together, we could discuss some of your brand attributes. We could come up with some keywords and then we could develop some social pillars or brand pillars and do a series, a few categories of kinds of posts that you can do. And with the elements of an identity, because now we're not just talking about a logo, but if we have a colour palette that represents those attributes, if we have typefaces that represent those attributes, and maybe some patterns or illustrations or photography, then we can develop some of these posts ahead of time."

"They'll all be wrapped around your brand attributes and we can create a number of these things in advance and you can post them. Wouldn't you like to have more time to spend on your business and with your family?" And that really touches a pain point or that touches something that can help them, that is an extension of just the logo. So now, in order to do this, we need to think about or develop, or discuss these brand attributes. We need to develop a toolkit of pieces more than just a logo, some of those that I just mentioned, so that we have the visual elements to have a consistent voice when they're on their social media channel. Maybe another person, they need a sign, or maybe another person needs a book that they're putting out. Whatever it is, you're discussing these things, and as you see either pain points or opportunities or how they're envisioning their company growing, you can just see how you can fit and take care of them and meet that need or elevate even the initial idea they have to a place they haven't imagined yet.

And so again, it's not so much merely up-selling to do more and to make more money. It's learning where they are, what their needs are, so we can meet those needs or we can help them in that area to build and grow their business. And I think in that sense you're building trust. That's where I talked about transparency and honesty in our questions and answers. And you're building a relationship. Everyone wants someone who they can trust to help them through their decisions and their business ideas. And so, if you can become that one, if you can become that resource, then there's opportunity for you to do a lot more and develop more work for them and a larger span, or a larger portfolio of items that you can produce for them.

Ian Paget: This is perfect. So something I'm wondering. In the cases where you see the opportunity to provide more than a logo, how are you going about showing what you can do for them? Do you have some kind of list of services so that they can see everything that you can potentially help with, or are you simply diagnosing what they need on a case-to-case basis and providing a solution during that conversation?

Ben Loiz: I think it's a little bit of both, but it's probably more of the latter. I think I mentioned earlier, my studio rarely does logo-only projects, but at the same time I don't often or hardly ever get a call or an email to do something like a website or a sign, or a flyer. My studio specialises in brand identity design, and so that's the request I will get. But really in the end, what is brand identity design? And when you view it holistically with its application, it ends up being sometimes a website. It ends up being a sign. It ends up being a book or a booklet. It ends up being all of those things. And so, when the initial conversation happens, again I may describe or ask them questions to understand what kind of business they are, and then maybe I'll present some ideas that broaden their imagination concerning what they can do with this identity. I think it's also done in presentations is why it's so helpful in presentations to show applications that relate to that client. In presentations, I don't have just a general list. Like every presentation I show a T-shirt and every presentation I show, I don't know, a business card.

But I'm thinking about that client. What does that client do? And so, if it's a particular kind of client that does events, I'll show a badge, a conference badge. I may show a notebook with a pen next to it. And these are just applications, these are just showing them what this could become. If they need a website or whatever, I may show them the identity applied in a website. And sometimes it's in the early conversation where all of these items are added into the project scope. Other times they're just looking for an initial identity, and then because of the presentation, "Wow. Oh, I didn't know we could do this, or I didn't know that we could make this feel this way as well." And they start seeing these applications start becoming more real. And there is where they learn that I can help them in those areas too. Now, that being said, I do have a brief list of services on my website. I also share examples on social media, and on my website on all the case studies, like you've seen, I show examples of identities being built out.

So, sometimes it's interior graphics for a business that has an office and they need graphics in their interior or some kind of wayfinding. Sometimes it's signage. Sometimes, if it's for a restaurant, maybe it's food packaging. I show those on my site so that you see it and may inspire you. Others potential clients can see it there and be inspired by it also. But I think the main place it happens is through the conversations, really trying to understand them and which areas of their business I can help them with. Then I'll suggest something or I'll propose working on a project together, or that we could use this identity to then build another project. And that discussion just begins from there.

Ian Paget: Yeah. That's a nice way of doing, actually. If you are showing it, that kind of sows the seeds within that initial presentation, and then you can have that separate conversation later on say, "I can help you actually apply this type of thing." Something else I wanted to ask you, and I don't know if this is something that you offer, but say on your website... Listeners need to go and look at Ben's website. His portfolio is incredible. And something that I like about it is that in most cases, I don't know if it's in all cases, but in most cases it all looks like photos. So something I've always wondered is say like the interior graphics, and you've got a few samples on your website, obviously you've done the artwork for it, but in terms of applying it as well, is that something that you are offering assistance with or are you just giving your client the artwork and letting them figure out who they need to work with to actually implement that?

Ben Loiz: I guess it depends. I think signage and interior graphics could be complicated for a client that doesn't have a contact or understand those things. Now, I'm not generally applying it myself, but I will help them find a company that does signage or a company that does application of interior graphics, and I'll work with that company. And so, I'll produce the files and send it to that company, and sometimes I'll be on site when the sign is installed and things like that. But in some cases, if it's let's say a flyer or a bookmark, or just something very simple and there are so many companies out there right now that you can create an account on their website and they offer all kinds of printed materials. If the client does that already and is comfortable doing that, and that's the place that they produce things at, sometimes I'll just send them the files, the print-ready files and let them take care of it. And in other cases, I have a pretty wide list of printers and people like this, and relationships with many of them as well. So sometimes I refer... Even to help that printer get some more work in, I'll refer a printer to the client and I'll work with them and take care of that side of things as well. So it really depends on the client and what we have agreed on.

Ian Paget: Yeah. You answered that how I was hoping that you would. So I've got a few more questions that I want to ask to dive into this. So, in those cases where say, they do need signage and they want more graphics and stuff like that, things that you said would be more complicated for the client, how is that relationship working? Because obviously you now need to hire a separate company, or you need to inform the client to hire that separate company. So, in terms of my questions, how is that relationship working? Is your client just coming to you and you're doing everything for them? So working directly with that supplier, or are you getting them to contact that supplier and you're charging by an hourly rate or something like that to provide the extra support? Can you talk through how that actually would work in terms of offering that service?

Ben Loiz: Right. Again, I think it's different for each one. There are a few clients that don't want to have any dealings with printers or anything like that. And so, they prefer you to just bake it into your fee, just add it into your rate and they want to get a box one day and that's it. And so, in those cases you just work that into your fee. You work in of course the cost of the printing, you talk to the printer and ask them how much it will cost. And you put an additional amount onto that, because of the work you're doing dealing with them. In other cases, and actually I prefer when the client is somewhat... I think it is important for my studio to be involved to some degree, because I need to approve and do quality control to make sure things are correct, but I actually prefer the client to have some kind of contact with that printer or manufacturer, and they're dealing with the payment side, and I'm just dealing with that printer in terms of sending files.

So my interaction with the client is back and forth until something is approved. And then I either send the file to the client or I upload it and send it straight to the printer. If I have a relationship with the printer it doesn't really change things much. That client would just create an account with that printer, so that just removes the added layer of details. They can pay for that on their own. They can do it when they want, they can pay for rushes if they want. All of these details. So I prefer actually to just refer a particular printer or maker to the client who can produce this thing as a physical object or whatever it is. And then, I work with the printer to produce it on their template or in the right way that they need it, and the client deals with them on the more... Order, and business, and shipping, and those details. But again, I've done both depending on what the client needs and wants, we can work that out together.

Ian Paget: Can I ask how you are pricing for this? Because when they're coming directly to you and you're working with partners, that makes sense, because you are getting a quote from the company. You are basically putting that in your proposal plus whatever time you need. In the scenario where they're working with a third party, you obviously need to get involved in some degree, whether that's preparing artwork, sending it over to the supplier, checking any proofs or doing quality control. Like you said, that obviously takes time. How do you go about making sure that you are paid accordingly for that time?

Ben Loiz: Well, you could either add it to the project. Let's say it's a brochure. You could add it to that project if you're going to... So in some cases, there's companies like MOO. M-O-O. I don't know if you're familiar with them?.

Ian Paget: Yeah, moo.com. Yeah. That's a really popular one.

Ben Loiz: Right. So let's say a client wants to use MOO. There's not too much quality control. There's not too much back and forth. There may be a PDF proof, but sometimes on those websites there's not much there apart from making your art print-ready. And that part of your work should be included in your fee already, in producing the piece. If there's going to be something more, then you can either add it to your fee, the fee for that brochure, so it's basically whatever you charge for your brochure plus a press fee. And if you're going to be going, like getting in your car and driving to the press to approve, or if you're going to be dealing with them via email. Let's say it's a brochure that's custom. It's not from a place like MOO, but it's from a printer that does custom cutting and you have dye cuts and special finishes, and you're going to be going back and forth a bit, then you can either add it to the rate for that brochure or you can just have a separate line in your invoice that is consulting or pre-press, or whatever you want to call it, to take care of that amount of time and amount of work that you're doing.

Ian Paget: So, another question I have in relation to this. So you've mentioned about building partnerships with all these different suppliers and you mentioned that you have a long list of these companies. I mean, obviously that's taken time for you to do that, and there will probably be people listening to this that just don't have those relationships yet, or they don't have that list of suppliers. How have you gone about finding and sourcing reliable companies that you can actually work with?

Ben Loiz: Yeah. Well, some of it is by trial and error, of course. And so that's what you were referring to when you said it takes time. So some printers that I no longer work with are because of the experience I had with them. Sometimes it's just looking. I would say this, it's helpful to have a local printer who you can create a relationship with and visit and learn about printing and pre-press. Now, you don't have to become a pre-press person. You don't have to become a printer, but as a designer, even as you are laying things out, making things, you need to know what options you have. You need to know what is going to cost your client more or how to save them money. When you build a relationship with a printer, they begin to tell you things. "Okay, so you can do it cheaper if you run it on this press, because we're running it along with other jobs," or, "We have a cheaper way to do that." And so, anyways, they're kind of... Because now you're quote unquote, "you're friends," you're building a relationship and they're letting you in on the information that they have, because they too are trying to take care of you.

And in that sense, you can take care of the client and you can have the knowledge to offer them suggestions that will help them or reduce their cost, or all of these things. So I would say it's helpful to find a printer or some kind of company nearby. And if it seems like they do good work and you'd like to continue working with them, just sit down, ask them questions, get to know them. The more you refer work to them, the more they're going to try to help you out. And you begin to learn about how to set up your files, how to save money for your client. You begin to learn what their offerings are. Like what kind of features this printer has, so that you can broaden your horizon of what you can produce. So that's the first thing. I would build a relationship with some people, maybe look for a sign maker, look for an offset printer, look for a letterpress printer, and just begin to support these companies, try them out with different clients.

So I have a list of companies like that. I also have a list of these kind of cheaper, more digital, online solutions. Some of them are better at things than others. Some of them focus on maybe stationary a little bit more and some focus on posters or books, different things. So there are these online solutions. And I just basically... Personally, what I do is create a Trello board. I have a Trello board for printers, and I have one section with a bunch of cards for offset and digital printers, one kind of row with a bunch of cards for apparel and T-shirt printers. This is both silk screening and digital printing on apparel. I have another section for ephemera. They're smaller items like stickers, pins, bookmarks, whatever. I have another section for packaging. I have another section for signage. And in each section I may have like 6 to 10 options to choose from. So whenever I'm working on a project, I'll just go through.

And in fact, sometimes if a client says, "I want to do stationary," I may take them to one of these places and show them, "Okay, these are the different kind of stationary that they provide. They provide custom design branded tape, they provide envelopes, they provide stickers, they provide tissue paper for your packaging." And again, what this does is, "Wow, I never knew these ideas existed." And now they see the opportunity they have to wow their customer. And so again, this is another way to help build their brand out. But anyways, all of this said, I think it takes time, but I would suggest there's a lot of benefit in building a relationship with some of these vendors, so you can learn about what they do and how you can use them and their resources. And again, you begin to help them, they begin to help you. Sometimes you even get lower rates on jobs, because you send them a lot of work. So anyways. Again, I would go back to the concept of relationship building.

Ian Paget: Yeah. And I very much agree with that, because at the very first company that I worked at was a medical company and they used a local printer. And what was great about that when I was learning, they were really great with answering questions and showing me things. They did a tour, they let me understand how the press works. They basically did all the works. And I got to know Phil, who worked there. And if there was anything that was wrong, because I remember I did spot UV. And the first time I did it, I did it wrong. They actually came in and shown, and said, "Just look so you know that this isn't right." And I was able to help do it correctly. But I know with a lot of the services that I use now, myself, most of the time I use printed.com, which is cheap, is quick and easy for things like business cards or whatever. But actually, when I compare some of that to what they did, they did like high quality stuff. Obviously a lot more expensive, but there was that relationship there. We could always ask questions. If we needed something done quickly, they were able to accommodate for that, because we were obviously a good client for them.

But yeah, the experience with them, it's a thousand times better than a lot of the simple stuff I'm doing at the moment, where I am just using moo.com or printed.com, or something like that.

Ben Loiz: Right. And there's a place for both. Sometimes there's a need for something cheaper and quick, or some of these online options have features that they've found a way to do a little bit cheaper, because that's the way they set up their business, that's the way they set up their printers. Maybe they run things digitally and then put a spot varnish on them, so it becomes a lot cheaper to have a similar effect. But in the end of the day, when the client is looking for top quality options, paper, all of these details, you at least have that printer to go to that can provide that. And again, like you said, I think many have experienced sending something to the press. Maybe something was off, maybe something was wrong, they just printed anyway and you get it back and it's messed up, whereas I've had the same experience where a printer that we have a relationship with may just... They stop and give you a call and, "Hey, I saw this, do you want to take care of it before we go?" And so, they're looking out for you because you're looking out for them and because you have this relationship.

Ian Paget: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I totally agree with that. So another question I have in relation to this. So these partnerships, when you spoke about offering other services, one of the examples was like, say web design. And say, if hypothetically, you have no idea how to build a website with the partnerships, are you also working with other people that can solve those things? Like say, if you can't do web design, would you hire a web designer to fulfil that part of the project for you?

Ben Loiz: Yes. But generally speaking, I'm not hiring at random and I'm not hiring from any of those websites where there may be hundreds of designers looking for work, but I work with a number of designers, developers who I trust, so that I can offer a wider range of services. And so, where do I find the designers? Some, I think I've shared with you in the past, I feel very strongly about mentorships and apprenticeships. So I'm always working with younger designers to kind of bring them up and to help them to grow and to learn. Sometimes they become the designers that I work with or I put onto projects. Maybe it's just because I don't have the bandwidth or the time, or the capacity to work on that project while I'm working on other things. So I'll put one of the designers I'm in contact with on that job through my studio, and just work with them and art direct, and kind of do it that way. Then there are other designers who are like partners, who I work with, live in various places. Today, it's great because the ones you work with don't have to live in the same city as you.

So I have a few designers, different places in the US that I've been working with for a while and we'll work together. I also have an animator that I work with, and I have a developer, a web developer that I work with. And so, I don't do web development. And so, when there's a need for a website, that's the time to bring on my developer. When there's a need for a logo to be animated, or maybe it's a short spot, like an advertising spot or commercial, or something that needs animation, I have an animator who can help with that. There are designers I partner with that are really good at laying out books and detailed typography. And so, if I don't have the span, the time, I can bring them on and they can take care of that. And so, I think that in that sense there are a few ways to go. Of course, there are sites, like I mentioned earlier, where designers are putting up their availability for work. I tend to not go that route, but that's one route that a person can go. I'm always keeping my eyes open for younger designers.

I've been in the industry for a while, so there are the partners that we've had a trusting relationship for a long time that I work with. And it just opens up more possibility for your business to grow, because you can take on work even when you don't have the capacity alone to do it. But also, I don't animate. I personally don't animate. I do storyboards. I can do creative for animations and come up with ideas and all of those things, and hand them over to an animator, but I don't animate myself, but I do have that resource. So my clients don't have to go and scramble the internet to find an animator. They can get that service straight through my studio, nor do they have to scramble to find a developer. Sometimes it's really difficult to find web developers that you can trust, just like any other area. So to have those people is important in the growth of your business and what you can offer for your clients. I think just working with different people, trying things out, maybe the best place to start, or you can try looking at some of the websites where designers offer their services.

Ian Paget: With these people that you work with, are you transparent with your clients that you are collaborating with a team of the other people? Are you keeping it relatively simple and taking on the project and being the main point of contact, but the client doesn't necessarily need to know that?

Ben Loiz: Again, this is a thing that depends. There are times where let's say I'm working on a project and I'm building an identity, and all of a sudden the client would like something specific. Maybe it's a little animation, or maybe it's an icon set, and I bring on someone else to do it. Sometimes a client doesn't know. To them, it doesn't really matter who made it. They just want that icon set. So I just bring the person on and they can work on it that way. Other times, sometimes when it's a larger project, like a campaign for a conference or something like that, I will put together a team and that team will be involved in some way. Sometimes the team is involved in presentations, they're visible in some way to the client in that project, but it really depends on the situation. Depends on the client, it depends on the particular thing I need someone's help with, the scale of the project. But I think it's both ways. Sometimes they just see that they came to my studio and they got everything they need. Sometimes they see a little bit larger of a team working together on their project.

Ian Paget: And I think that makes a lot of sense in terms of what we've been speaking about. So being able to offer a complete solution, it makes a lot of sense to bring in other people and to build partnerships and stuff like that. So I hope through that conversation that we've had over the last almost 50 minutes now, has answered people's questions and given enough information around offering more than a logo. But I want to spend the last 10 minutes talking about something else that you spoke about with me privately a couple of days ago, that's inspired me and I think it will inspire other people. So I want to ask you about it. So I think as graphic designers, it's really easy to get into the routine of the only creativity you do is stuff that basically makes you money.

So either working with clients or working on some marketing material or something like that to attract clients. And other creative endeavours... In my case, I mean not everyone listening will be in the same situation, but in my case, I don't do a lot of other creative stuff just for fun. But you started to. So you shared with me this painting project that you've been working on called, Other Things. I know it's not logo design, but it has this typography element to it and I think it's cool, and I'd love to talk about it. So can you tell us a little bit more about those creative projects that you are doing outside of paid client work?

Ben Loiz: Right. Well, I would just begin by saying I think it's so important for designers to be curious, to always have their eyes open and looking for inspiration, looking for ways to grow, looking for things to learn. Maybe it was in our last podcast where I mentioned, or in some conversation with you, I've mentioned things like gardening. I'm not saying everyone needs to become a gardener, but what I'm saying is that you can find inspiration from gardening. You can find inspiration from going to a museum. You can find inspiration in so many ways in life, in conversations. We just keep our eyes open and it helps us to be a more rounded designer. If all we know and all we think is kerning and which typeface just got released, probably our work will look and feel a certain way. But if we have other inspirations, whether it's books we read on other topics than design, and any of the other things I just mentioned, we bring to the table something else. We bring to the table different colours. We bring to the table different ideas, different solutions. It just expands who we are as a designer.

So that being said, I always promote with those I'm mentoring or in talks like this, that designers can learn to stretch and expand their intake. And so anyways, to get to your main question, what is this project Other Things? I have a background in art. I grew up doing art as a kid. I studied drawing and painting in school. And for a long time had painted and did artwork in various kinds. I, for some years, focused on silkscreen printing for a while, but there was a period of time where I stopped making art, just expressive art, expressing something. I was still being inspired in many different ways, but I wasn't making art for a long time. One day my son and I, we were at a museum in Los Angeles called the LACMA, and we came upon a painting and it was a little watercolour painting done in the kind of mid century, maybe a little earlier. And it was just kind of the shapes and I was struck by it. And in fact, when I went into this room in the museum, there was a sign that said, "No pictures." So I was like, "I want to take a picture because I'm so inspired, but I'm not allowed."

So I took a picture in my mind, and on the way home I said to my son, "Hey, let's go to the art supply store." So we went and we bought a bunch of art supplies and watercolours and watercolour paper. And I didn't really work in watercolours before. I worked in other materials. I've worked in oil paint. I've worked in spray paint and silkscreen, like I mentioned, but not watercolours. This was something new that I was inspired by from that painting. We came home and we just started painting, me and my son. And at first I did a painting that looked kind of like the painting in the museum. And I was like, "Oh, that's nice." But right away, I thought, "Well, that's just the painting from the museum. That's not me." And I've always worked in type even before I was a designer, I worked with letters for my artwork. And so, I just began to make words and sentiments and phrases out of shapes, circles, squares, triangles, and painting them with watercolour. And I really loved... Normally watercolour is used in such a free organic way, but these paintings were very controlled in the sense that they're very sharp, clean shapes. They almost look like they're printed, but they're painted with watercolour, so the inside of the letters are very fluid and organic.

And I began to consider even the words that I use and how these words can express something of hope and faith or the human experience, and just began to make many, many paintings. I was painting all the time. At some point I had about 40, 50 paintings and I wondered, "What am I going to do with this? I just have them in a flat file in my studio." So I just discussed with my wife and was considering it myself as well. And I had some people beginning to inquire about them because I was beginning to post them. So I thought, let me make a small company or a small side project called, Other Things. These are other things that I make apart from commercial design or whatever you want to call it. Branding, brand identities. These are other things. And so, I found the URL shopotherthings.com. I got shopotherthings on Instagram, and I just began to post these paintings. And it's really... One, it's therapeutic to make. Two, I appreciate how the words connect with people. On the one hand they're abstract, on the other hand they say something, and those words connect with people on an emotional and experiential level.

It's also flexing different muscles. I'm able to be creative and express something that I'm not able to express as clearly when I'm doing commercial design or identity design. It's just something that has sparked a new light in my life to be able to produce something that I love making and that to some degree, hopefully makes other people happy or makes other people inspired. And I look at it as an extension of that same concept of always having your eyes open and staying inspired by other things than just design, because some of that inspiration in those elements can come back to the design work that you do. And at least in my part, the design helped create the language and the aesthetic for my paintings as well. So they really worked together as a team, but it's just another area that I've been able to focus on and develop. And so, now I have an online shop where I'm selling some of the works, and I have an Instagram where I'm able to be creative and show behind the scenes, how these are being made and show new paintings. So anyways, it's a really enjoyable process, and I hope in some way, whether it's through baking, gardening, painting, many designers could have other forms of inspiration that can add to their visual language.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I'm very much in favour of passion projects, which I feel this is, and in this case it's doing something that you enjoy and there's no financial element of it, you are purely doing it for fun. And when I think back to the most rewarding work that I've done, most of that work has been passion projects. And I would say Logo Geek started off as a passion project, but it now just happens to be my full-time thing. And it's nice to be in a position where I started something on the side for fun, because I was interested in it and I was passionate about it. And now it's become very much my life. It's an important part. And I think you never know what could become of this Other Things. As you work on it more and you start to sell more of these prints, you never know, it could become a whole new thing of its own. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter because you're doing it for fun, for therapeutic reasons. And yeah, it is been a while since I've done a passion project, and I know when I saw what you were doing, it's like it got the cogs going, it's got me thinking, "What could I do?"

I've got an older sister that's been painting a lot the last couple of years. And what she does now is for Christmas and birthdays. She generally paints a picture and it's really nice. And her and what you are doing it's got me inspired. I don't know what I'd do with that inspiration, but you definitely got the cogs going. And I hope people will look at what you are doing. I'll make sure to link it in the show notes so that people can follow you. I love the videos, because... For context, Ben's been filming himself painting. It's just nice to watch. The way... You paint in a very slow, very careful, a very precise way. And it's just nice to see. And it is nice to see the work and yeah, I'm happy to support what you're doing through this, so I hope listeners will go and check that out, will go and check out your portfolio and go and check out everything that you're doing.

But yeah, we've just hit the hour mark, so that's probably a good point to wrap up this interview. Once again, it's been an absolutely fantastic interview, is always a genuine pleasure to talk to you, Ben. So I hope listeners have enjoyed another hour with you. I still feel like there's so much that we can talk about. So maybe in a year's time or at some point in the future, I'll have to get you back on again and I'll try and come up with some new topics to talk about. But Ben, thank you so much for coming on again. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Ben Loiz: Ian, thank you. I agree, this has been a wonderful time to catch up and to discuss these thoughtful questions. So I hope that in some way it helped those who are listening in. Of course, if you have questions, feel free to reach out. But Ian, thank you. Again, I appreciate having this opportunity and hope that it was as helpful for you as it is for me.

Ian Paget: Oh, definitely. It's been great for me, so I hope our listeners have enjoyed it just as much.

Ben Loiz: Thank you.