Motivation to Escape the Rut

Ian Paget: You now run your own design agency, Monograph & Co. For a lot of designers, that's the ultimate dream I think, to have your own design agency. So I'm curious to learn from you, what was the events that led you to set up your own agency?

Sophia Ahamed: I think there were quite a few events. A lot of them were personal I think on a very personal note. But in a general sense, I think that for me, I was just very uncomfortable with how things were going in my life at that point.

I was working at a job where it was just no longer giving me what I needed. And it was just time for me to move on, and I didn't want to move on and get another position somewhere else. Had my own ideas, my own dreams. And I think I was just in a very uncomfortable spot. So it just pushed me to jump and to take that leap.

Of course, one would plan as much as they can before they leave a job, before they make a move to be a business owner full-time. But yeah, I think it was just being in a place where you're uncomfortable. If you're comfortable with how things are, if you're okay with the status quo and just kind of trucking along, you're not going to really have much motivation to do something like this because it is difficult. It is difficult to go your own way and to start your own thing and there's a lot of challenges, which I think is why a lot of people have a lot of hesitations to do something like that.

But when you find yourself at a point where you've had enough ... It's the age old saying of life is short. And it is. It's very short. Very fickle. You've got to do it. You've just got to go for it.

Ian Paget: Was you in a graphic design job previously or was it something totally unrelated to graphic design?

Sophia Ahamed: No, it was a design job. Thankfully, most of the jobs that I've held in my life are design or creative in one way or another. But yeah, the job that I held was sign related. I was definitely utilising my knowledge but it wasn't to my fullest capacity. It was kind of stunted.

So I was kind of going in every day and just doing what I was told to do and just doing work that I felt wasn't really encompassing my own vision. And there's just no way I could do that unless I did it on my own, unless I went my own way, pursued my own goals of what I wanted to build and what I wanted to see as an agency that I wasn't finding in the jobs that I held.

Ian Paget: Yeah. Well, I can relate because just before the call I mentioned to you that in the beginning of March I took that leap too full-time. I was already part-time anyway. But I can relate with that because the agency that I was working at, I was basically just doing it for the money and nothing that I was doing was particularly special. It's not something that I would put in my portfolio. I just kind of did it because that was what I was doing at that time. And it was only what I was doing at home in my personal time through my own personal projects that I was working a more fulfilling work.

Doing more fulfilling design work

Ian Paget: So with that jump ... So you left that job and you decided to set up on your own. What kind of projects was it for you that seemed a lot more fulfilling?

Sophia Ahamed: I think that working in niche markets like food and beverage, fashion, beauty, retail, was something that I really, really enjoyed. That's where my stylistic approach, I think, really excelled and was valued the most within those clientele. So it was projects like that that were very thoughtful, very creative, but artistic as well.

I think mixing a sense of artistry and design and strategy, kind of doing those three things together, bringing a project to life with those elements was really, really intriguing to me. I'm very, very fortunate to also have two amazing creative partners who do photography and styling for the same niche markets as well and the three of us kind of have the same feelings and goal of just wanting to do high level work for a very specific clientele who could really use our creative process, but also value the work that we do and see potential in it. So it was those things that really drove and motivated the idea behind studios.

And then of course, just having an agency that really did good work and had really good relationships with clientele, and just tried to do good things for good people.

Partnering with other designers

Ian Paget: I like what you said about working with partners because I know it's something that a lot of graphic designers think about. Because when they take that leap, they're trying to make their mind up whether they want to be under their own name or if they want to create a studio. And I generally advise that if you want to work with other people and grow it in the way that you are, then it makes sense to actually build an agency.

But I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the approach that you're taking is rather than actually hiring people, you're still working as an independent graphic designer, but when you want to expand your services, you mentioned about the photography and the other things, you're basically partnering with other people. So as and when you need to offer the client more services, you can do that just by leveraging the skills of those people that you partnered with. Is that the case?

Sophia Ahamed: Yeah. I think you touched on it pretty well. The idea is to have other designers on the team to handle various projects and various tasks. But the overarching idea behind Monograph is to partner with other amazing creatives who do fantastic work and bring the clientele a very full creative experience. Something that hopefully is different than what they may have experienced at other studios. So partnering up with an amazing stylist or an amazing interior design studio to then bring a project to the forefront and have even more resources to create something even more phenomenal is kind of the idea behind the studio.

So Monograph & Co, and company, meaning and others. And then monograph being a writing terminology for focusing on one task at a time, focusing on one thing at a time and just really putting all your energy into that. So I think that's the kind of ethos of the company. It's like, focusing diligently on one's craft and combining that work ethic with other people who have phenomenal work ethic and work. And then bringing that to the client.

So you can have a project that goes from good to great, great to phenomenal. And I think that's the desire as we work towards building the studios to create something that really is a completely different experience.

Ian Paget: I love that approach. I mean, I think that's quite easy for other designers to replicate. Because I think employing staff is quite daunting, but expanding your services by collaborating with partners is a really nice way to do it. And we've touched on it on previous episodes in the past, but you mentioned then as well that the people that you are working with, it's not conflicting skillsets, it's complementary. So they specialise in things that would enhance the client's overall experience, but each of you add your own element to it, if that makes sense.

Sophia Ahamed: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Definitely. Again, I think you nailed it. It's about finding those complementary things. It's not about us being able to do everything on our own, but it's about seeking out those partnerships and those down the line friendships that you create with other amazing creative individuals who know how to do their thing. They do it exceptionally well. Everybody kind of grows their companies. Everybody gets to partaking and doing good work.

Ian Paget: Could I be slightly nosy and try and understand a little bit more how it works when you work in this way?

Sophia Ahamed: Sure.

Ian Paget: I take it that Monograph & Co is basically your baby, you operate it, inquiries and everything come into you. How does it work when, say you get a project, and you need two other people to come in? Do you basically hire them for that specific task? I guess what I'm trying to understand is how does it work in terms of working out pricing and allocating the task to the other people? Does it all come under you so to speak?

Sophia Ahamed: Right. If I'm hiring an employee that would be kind of like an employee basis. But when we are hiring someone like a photographer for example, the partners that I have, they handle their businesses separately.

So the way I do it is I take care of the design, so I press out what it would cost for me to be the designer and what my resources would take and scope of work and things of that nature. And then the photography would be priced with the photographers and stylists. So they would say this how much it would cost for us to style this and photograph this piece. And then they would either give me that price and I would send it to the client as one invoice, or sometimes in some cases the client will deal with the photographers in terms of pricing.

And then when it comes to work, as long as everybody's getting paid and everybody knows what their tasks are and what their role is in the project, we can work comfortably together to see the project through. And I think the benefit of that is one, the people who are pricing get their fair share and they know exactly what that is.

And they deal with their money in their own regard. And with that being said, you can also come together as the designer, as the stylist, and work together rather than working separately. So everybody has an idea of where the project is going. Everybody has their input. And that's how you can get, I think, a lot more stronger impactful work. So I hope that answers your question.

Ian Paget: Oh yeah, it does. It's a nice way to operate because I'm a solo business and I have no intent at all of hiring someone else. I'm quite likely to always work from home because one of the main reasons for wanting to go full-time is so that I can watch my little one grow up and get to see her in the day. It's more of a lifestyle business so to speak.

But it's interesting that the more people I speak to it's quite common that graphic designers with complementary skillsets ... So you wouldn't get a designer working with another designer. It's normally a designer with a developer or with a photographer. Or with a group of people that all operate independently but sell their services under this umbrella so that they can all team up when needed. It seems like a really nice way to go about scaling without actually needing to worry about hiring staff in a traditional way or having an office building or any of the usual things that come with a more traditional agency model.

Sophia Ahamed: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I agree and I think that right now for us, because we're still a small group, it works perfectly. And then, like you said, it's something that you can scale so it's not set in stone. We're constantly refining and making things better. And every project you get on your desk is different. There's always something different, something unique about it. It's something that we'll constantly review and try to make better within ourselves. But as you said, it is a great way to scale.

Quitting a job to get out of a rut

Ian Paget: I wouldn't mind going back to how you mentioned that you were stuck in that job and you were just kind of stuck in a bit of a rut and you wanted to get out of that and that's one of the reasons why you started your own company.

I would assume that's probably quite common in the graphic design space that people are in a graphic design job and they would like to have their own freedom and escape that and start their own thing. And you've been successful at doing that. I've also been able to do that myself. So I wouldn't mind finding out from you ... I mean, you went into it briefly, but going into a little bit more detail.

How did you actually go about escaping that job? Did you just quit and start your own thing or was there any form of overlap between the two of them?

Sophia Ahamed: I didn't just quit. I wanted to move on and I was just in a very uncomfortable spot, I think, in my life. And one of the things that I really wanted was to have accountability and more control over my life and the work that I do and how I live and what I do with time, and how I spend my time, and who I spend it with. So when I decided that that's what I wanted to do and that I wanted to have my own thing because I had my own ideas of what I wanted my business to look like, I started to plan what I needed. And what I needed was some runway. And I needed to get in a spot where leaving my job would give me enough time to try to build something tangible.

So it took me about nine months to leave the job that I had. Within that nine months I was planning. So I ended up getting a bit of a business loan, which was really great. We have a fantastic entrepreneurship program here in Canada in British Columbia that allows young entrepreneurs to kind of get a little bit of money and some resources to leave one's job.

But it took a long time to fill out application forms and get approved and things like that. So yeah, I did things of that nature and I tried to do everything I knew that I could to help myself be better prepared. You'll never be fully 100% prepared. There's always the unknown. But I did the best I could to get all my resources lined up and when it did line up and I was ready to start, that's when I kind of put in my notice for two weeks and said, "Okay, well, it was great but it's time for me to move forward." But yeah, it took about nine months to plan. So it took a while. It took a while.

Ian Paget: Yeah, but I think that's a really important thing to say because graphic designers that are successful that are in kind of a dead end job that they want to leave, I don't believe that you can just step away without having any form of preparation unless you have the support of parents or family or whatever. But you're probably in the same position as me where you have bills to pay, you've got responsibilities, you can't just quit a job and hope for the best, which I've seen people do. You do need to have something operating already so that when you do step away you have clients already coming to you. They can already find you and so on. Because that's exactly what I did.

Mine was over quite a long period of time because I didn't actually plan to step away in the same way as you. I built what's now Logo Geek as a bit of a hobby, but I scaled it on the side of a full-time job. And then I got to a point where I was just too busy so I went part-time. And then once I felt quite comfortable that I could fully sustain my current lifestyle and bring in more money than my part-time job, then that's when I stepped away.

But obviously I don't think everyone has the opportunity to be able to go part-time. I'm curious to ask, so you got that loan.

Sophia Ahamed: Yes.

Getting a loan to stay afloat

Ian Paget: Would you mind sharing what you did with that loan? Because I mean, money's money. What'd you do with it? Did you get a website? Did you buy things that you needed like equipment? What type of things did you invest in?

Sophia Ahamed: I got a $15,000 loan, which was in Canadian dollars. And what it went to was helping me stay afloat. I had the tools I needed. Luckily, I don't need ... Even now, at this point, I don't need a lot of tools. I need a laptop. A few things of that nature, which I kind of already had because I was already working a design job anyway. So I didn't really need to upgrade anything other than some basics like maybe a hard drive or something of that nature.

But the money basically went to me staying afloat, paying bills, things of that aspect, so I could continue to accumulate clients. So it was acting as runway. Some people say that they save up three or four months of runway so when you don't have many clients or enough. And then of course I went to a bunch of other resources too like marketing and things like that. And a few supplies. But that's what the money was there for. It was basically there as a ... You're not working. You have no income. While you're trying to gain more clientele, what do you do?

So it was a bit of a mixed bag, but yeah, it was a small bit of runway. 15K, depending on where you live, may or may not go very far at all. But again, it was doing the best you can with what you have. So it's what I had. It was definitely helpful. It wouldn't have been very helpful if I lost that job and didn't have any income whatsoever. So it was helpful in that nature and it was big enough to cover me for a little bit. It was small enough to make me move. Because it's like if you have a little bit you can try to stretch it as much as you can but at the same time you've got to make some bold moves if you're going to keep going. So it kind of pushed me as well to make some bold, nerve-racking moves. So yeah, that's kind of where that money went to.

Ian Paget: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's nice that you had that option because it meant that you could probably fast track what you did. Because prior to me going full-time in the way that I did, because my partner doesn't work ... She's a stay at home mom now raising our little daughter. And I've got a mortgage and bills and everything like that. So in the household all the pressure is on me. It's my sole responsibility to bring in enough income. So taking that leap seemed very high risk, especially at the beginning.

It was a very daunting thing to do, especially if you never worked for yourself full-time in the way that both of us have. But what I did to protect myself ... You did it in a different way. You was able to get that loan. But I saved up as much as I could. I worked every hour I could because I had to give a two month notice. So over that two month period I just worked as much as I possibly could. But I also was lucky that with the podcast I was able to get a sponsor for a whole six month block and they paid it all in one go in about February.

So I had a really nice runway. And I mean, I'm sure it was the same with you. It meant that you could sit down and focus on building your business and not having to stress about making enough money that week. Because I think that's the thing that I found has been on the back of my mind for the few months of being full-time. It's easy to get bogged down in the work, but actually the work isn't what makes you money. You need to keep making sales. And the work gets done in between so I've always been focused in on that. But with the runway, it's just a case of just keeping on top of it and making sure that I never go below a certain amount. And now I'm actually quite comfortable and hopefully you're in the same place. Was that two years ago now?

Sophia Ahamed: Yeah, two years. Two years, yeah.

Ian Paget: Yeah. And have you been able to pay off all that loan and everything and you're fully independent now?

Sophia Ahamed: Almost there. It's a bit of a balance. Business is kind of a balance. Sometimes you're doing very well, other times you ... I don't know if you've ever felt like this, but sometimes you feel like, oh, I'm doing really great, and other days you're like, no, I'm not. I'm not doing great at all. What was I thinking? Why did I think that? But it's a balance.

But I think that the most important thing is when you look back. And when I look back at who I was when I left my position versus who I am right now having this conversation with you, there's such a tremendous amount of growth and knowledge and ability to do better work. To just be able to have better conversations with individuals. Just the amount of growth.

So with that being said, things have grown exponentially. And there's so many categories. There's personal growth, there's business growth, there's financial growth. And I've seen growth happen on all those sectors. It's not 100% where I think me and my business partners would like it to be, but we're getting there. And every day it's like another step to getting this to be even more big and more fulfilled.

So yeah, to answer your question, it's there. It's further along than I could imagine. Still always a lot more work to do, but happy with the journey and the process that's happening right now.

Self motivation needed to escape the rut

Ian Paget: I think it's awesome to hear that you're growing and I think for anyone that's thinking of doing the same thing, one thing I would add is that you do need a lot of self motivation. You have to ... Nothing happens unless you make it happen. So all of this growth that you've done, that's been fully reliant on you pushing yourself to do that. Because it's easy to sit down and do nothing.

You're incredibly motivated so you've done a lot of self growth. You built up the partners. You've obviously developed the website. You're doing all of this stuff on your own. Do you have any support system or any methods that you're using to help you work through that so that you do remain quite motivated?

Sophia Ahamed: Yeah. I think that, honestly, when you're doing anything in life that requires a lot of self motivation, which I think everything kind of does, you just have to have a very strong why. A very strong reason for doing what you're doing that goes beyond the material. So it's fine to want to make a good amount of money. It's fine to want to have nice things. There's nothing wrong with that. But I feel like you have to have a very strong why that exceeds that. And I think that I do.

I think that a lot of that for me comes from my personal experiences of just being caught in some very difficult times. Going through loss and grief. Losing my parents, in a way, brought that on. Just being in a very difficult financial situation. Just kind of being on your own and just kind of realising that, kind of like I touched on earlier, life is very short. And you never know when your time's going to be up. It could happen at any time or you could lose even more people that you love at any moment in time.

I find that to be very ... It pushes me to try to go the extra mile. Or it pushes me to constantly be uncomfortable because being comfortable and kind of just being okay with things isn't going to give me the life that I want to lead. It's not going to really make me the person I want to be. So it's those factors for me that really motivate me. And again, it comes from a place of a very strong, very personal kind of why. Like why are you doing this? What does this mean to you? What is this for? So I think that having something like that that motivates you from the inside, or a deeper place, really helps that sense of self motivation.

Ian Paget: I can relate a lot with that because I mentioned early on that in terms of my progression going from working for a company to being fully independent as I am now, I actually did that in stages. So I went part-time for a period of time, but what I actually did at that time was handed in my notice to go full-time. And they offered me part-time at that point.

But the reason why I made that change is probably similar to you in terms of personal reasons. But my mum passed away not long before. She had vascular dementia and I got to spend time with her in a care home and you see other people in that same position, and in the end she passed away. And after that, the one thing that I got from it was that I don't want to get to that point in my life and look back and regret having not done anything. And I'd been building Logo Geek on the side for a long time just as a hobby. It was never anything too serious. But I could see that I was missing opportunities and I could see that this could be something that could grow beyond anything I ever imagined.

But I was kind of stuck in this place, in a similar way to you, where I was working full-time for a company. I was quite comfortable there. It was my main source of income. In terms of my goals, that's what I always wanted to do was just work for another company and just work my way up. But when my mom passed away, just thinking I don't want to regret anything. So I actually did a lot of stuff.

It was the kick I needed to make a change and it sounds like it was the case for you. So I just didn't want to regret anything. So it's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, because I used to say now. I've always had social anxiety so anything like what we're doing now, I would say no to it. So being on audio, being on video, being in front of a group of people. That's when I did the Sidegig podcast with Millo, and that gave me a bit of confidence to start my own. And anyone that listens back, season one I'm so nervous. But now I've worked through that. I'm quite comfortable and quite independent.

And it sounds like that was very much the same for you so I agree with you that you need that thing that's greater than anything. I don't think I'll ever go back to working for someone else unless I feel that it's working towards my longterm goals in some way.

Sophia Ahamed: Oh yeah, I agree. And I think you and I have very similar experiences. I remember my mother being in a hospital in many different facilities and just being there ... I'd work all day and then I'd go to the hospital late at night to sit with my mother til visiting hours were over. And it was just very high anxiety, very high stress, very unfulfilled. And you'd go visit your parent and see all these other people around suffering with illness and you see your parent suffering at the same time.

If that doesn't motivate you to move ... For me, it's like I don't want to have any regrets, but at the same time it's like well, this could be me in like 10 years or 20 years. And that's not a long time. These years just fly by. Everybody says it all the time, like, "Oh, I can't believe it's the end of the year. I can't believe it's the new year." It's like these years just fly by and all of the sudden your health is gone. My health was horrible mentally, physically. I just didn't want to see that and I also wanted to be there for my mother. I wanted to be there for my loved ones.

And I wouldn't be able to be there if I'm not healthy and I wouldn't be able to be there for them if I was living a life that was very unsatisfactory. And the pay wasn't very well either so I couldn't even bank on that and be like well, at least I'm making X amount of dollars. It was just all around bad. And it was that thing that motivates you. And so sometimes when you're doing something and it's particularly difficult, those memories, I think, just pop up and like you said, it just gives you that kick. You just get that massive kick and you're like now I'm going to go for it. I'm going to do it.

Death is the greatest motivator to change your life

Ian Paget: I don't know if you're a fan of Gary Vaynerchuck, Gary V. One piece of motivational advice, he actually says, "You're going to die." And it's something that you can look at as quite a morbid thing, but it is fact. It does happen to everybody. And as you grow older, because of the length of time of a year compared to the length of time that you lived is ... You compare it. Each year, a year will ultimately start to feel faster and faster and faster. So when you're a child you live your one year. That's your entire life. So when you get another year, it's like your entire life all over again. So when you're young, a year just feels like forever. I think it's because you're at school as well, you don't want to be at school.

But when you get older ... There might be some listeners now that could feel one of two ways. They could either hear this and feel down, which is understandable. But I think it's important to look at it in the way that we both have.

I think that's an important lesson because I've spoken about this type of thing with a lot of people, and whenever I bring it up with people that are older, in their 40s or in their 50s, they generally say, "You're lucky that you realise that at a young age because some people get to 60, 70 and then realise oh gosh, I wasted all that time." So that is such a huge motivator.

I remember when I was young my sister said to me, "If you want to do something, you need to do it now." And I've taken that quite literally. So if you want to write a book, stop talking about writing it. Stop going to seminars about writing it. Stop going to meet-ups, group chats, all this sort of stuff. Stop talking about it. Actually just sit down and get on with it. Because that's the thing that ultimately makes a difference. You can talk about going on that holiday or you can talk about building that website or going full-time, or getting this client, or working with that type of person, but once you've got the knowledge that you need, just sit down and get on with it.

Because there's finite time. It's not infinite. If you want to do it, do it. And that's something that's in me and I think that's in you as well that you just need to get on with it and crack on. And I hope, rather than what we're talking about, because we are talking about death is sad. And people don't like talking about it. But understanding and accepting that that is the reality of what's going to happen, it should hopefully motivate you to make a change, to take that leap, to do that thing that you've been dying to do and to ultimately do what both of us have done and doing work that's fulfilling and growing personally and all that sort of stuff.

Sophia Ahamed: Absolutely. And it's funny, I'm a big fan of stoic philosophy and they have a saying called Memento Mori, which means you're going to die. You'll die. And even if it's not motivating for some to think of that in that sense, think about the people that you love. They're going to pass away. Maybe pass away before you. And if you want to be there for your loved ones, your partner, your family, whatever, do it for them. Take that leap for them.

It's a bit contradictory because a lot of people, rightfully so, want to make sure that they're going to be able to take care of their responsibilities. And absolutely, that's very important. But one of those things can also be about taking care of yourself mentally, physically. Having control over your time. So I know I can be there for my loved ones if they need me to be without having to be trapped to a schedule that is unreasonable or something of that nature. So do it for that as well.

Ian Paget: Yeah, it's like with me, I'm ... Like I said about my little one, she's growing so fast. It feels like only a few weeks ago that she was not even able to crawl. And now she's running around, starting to say her first few words and learning so fast. And I feel very, very lucky that because of my personal circumstances, how I've built this thing, I'm able to work from home. I'm able to see her. I'm able to watch her grow. And once that time's gone, you can't get it back.

I feel very lucky that I've been able to do that. And if I didn't build this thing on the side, I wouldn't have that. If I had just kept thinking about it. It made a difference. And I've said this so many times on the podcast that people are always saying that they don't have enough time, but you can always make 15 minutes a day. And if you do 15 minutes a day every day for a week, that's an hour and 15 minutes. And if you do that every day for a month, suddenly that's over ... It's between three and four hours a month that you can spend on something. So as long as you have a very clear goal and you put aside just a small amount of time, even if it's just waking up 15 minutes earlier or fitting it in at the end of the day.

Whatever position you're in, everybody can make 10 minutes and really make a difference.

Making time to change your life

Sophia Ahamed: Absolutely. And if it's very, very important to you, you will find the time. Like you said, even if you have to wake up super early to do it. And I think this is true for everyone, myself included, it's like you have time. It's like, what are you spending on? Are you spending it on being on social media? Which all of us are guilty of, which is okay.

Just be aware and then replace that habit with the ones that are going to help you reach your goal. Like you said, that 15 minutes, that hour that you might be spending on scrolling on social media and not even realising it, just taking that away and using it to spend it on that one thing that's going to help you five years from now when you're finally ready to do your own thing. Or maybe you don't want to do your own thing. You want to work for a specific company. It'll help you get there. Help you reach that goal.

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And something you mentioned then was habits. So daily habits, things that you do. You generally find that the most successful people, they don't build this thing in one day and then the next day they're like a superstar. It's small things every single day that make a real difference. So something I did was post on Twitter every single day. And I mean, that's like a two minute job. But do that every day for 10 years, then 10 years later you have 100,000 followers on Twitter. And healthy habits can make a massive difference. So I think it's good that you brought that up.

Sophia Ahamed: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I think it's not the big things. I was just telling this to somebody the other day. It's not the big things, it's the little things that you do, at almost the smallest scale. That's what builds over time. That's what counts.

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, definitely. I totally agree with that. Now, we have about 15 minutes or so left of the interview. So I wouldn't mind spending some time talking about design process.

Sophia Ahamed: Okay.

The identity design process at Monograph & Co

Ian Paget: I've spoken to loads of different people now for the podcast and every single time, although there's some overarching similarities, most people work in a different way. Would you mind sharing your process for how you would typically work on a branding project? And the audience is other designers. We love all the nitty gritty details so feel free to go in as much detail as you wish.

Sophia Ahamed: Right. Well, I think that when you get a project it's really important to make sure that we're connecting with the client and that we're a good fit. And usually we do that with the first sales call just to make sure that not only is budget's aligned and scope of work is aligned, but also to make sure that we have the same values and the same ideals of being able to work together. We both feel that the same issues are important and that we're going to mesh very well as studio and client.

Once that process has been completed, we start with strategy and discovery. And I think that's very, very important to start with because it's important to have a very clear, concise conversation with the clientele. What their goals are, what they hope to get out of the project, looking at their audience, customer habits, behaviours, things of that nature. So that way when we do the work we can actually really focus on who we're doing it for, why, and what the outcome is going to be. So that's really, really important.

And then from there we go through a direction phase, which is you do one or two directions depending on the project. And it gives the client a very good idea of what they can expect, kind of what we're thinking based on the discovery, and that kind of includes colour palettes, typographic hierarchies and structure, and a lot of supporting images as well. So the client has a good idea of where we want to take the project. And once a direction has been settled, we go to the idea of prototyping and concept development. And from there we'll do about two to three concepts. We like to do more than one because I find that giving the client a few options is very healthy and I think produces a better outcome. This is not three completely drastically different concepts. They're all loosely connected. But it just gives the client a variety to choose from and to see different ways you can look at a project and the way you can kind of go forth with a specific concept.

And then once that's taken care of, we go through the prototyping end stage of actually developing the materials. And then the last little juicy fun bit is getting things back from the printers if it's packaging and something like that. And then working with our team to photograph and style the pieces to actually bring to the market. So that's the general idea of how we run through projects.

Ian Paget: I really like that you present initial directions after you do the strategy. Is that like Stylescapes? I've spoken to Ben Burns at The Futur. They do a lot of Stylescapes. So you're presenting the general direction that you would advise to go but it's not a finished thing. Is that the type of thing that you were sharing at that stage?

Sophia Ahamed: Absolutely, yeah. We just want to give the client a really good idea of where we're going to take it and why. And again, always linking back to the discovery of how this is going to help your audience, how this is going to meet your goals, why are we doing this, and does it hit the overall target markets and touch points? So the client has a good idea. It's loose. It's not meant to be perfect, but it does have to be able to communicate very clearly what our ideas are and the reasoning behind it. So that's a very, very important part.

And then once the client feels very comfortable and very excited about choosing a specific direction, then we're able to take that and really play with it. And this is kind of where the imagination comes in. When you're concept developing and prototyping. This is where you can actually kind of let your mind kind of let loose and play and just really run the gamut of pushing things as far as you can. So that's the fun part, but that's also the slightly stressful part because you're just like I want to really create something that's very intriguing and very valuable to the client so that they have the best shot in the marketplace.

But at the same time you want it to be fun and all those kind of fun things. So there's a little stress there but it's good stress. It's the stress that pushes you to do your best work.

Ian Paget: Yeah. I think every designer needs that. Most really good designers I know may tend to have this seed of doubt in their mind that what they're doing isn't the best thing and I think that's a good trait to have because it means that you're just constantly pushing and striving to do better work, so it's not a bad thing. I also like what you said about presenting options. It's one of those debates that I've seen endless times in the Logo Geek community.

People have asked how many do you present. I know the likes of Aaron Draplin, because of the speed that he works at, he'll often put hundreds of options together and present those to the client just to try and agree some kind of direction. But based on a lot of the conversations that I've had, as much as I love the one logo approach, I've come to the conclusion after lots of thought that actually showing options isn't a bad thing. I think it's nice to be able to invite your client into the process in some way.

I think what you mentioned about agree on that general direction initially and then working on some concepts, and then putting them together. You mentioned that they are quite similar. So they all clearly meet the brief. They would all be appropriate in the real world. They all work effectively. I think that's the key thing when you show options is that you should be happy that if the client was to choose one of them, it wouldn't matter which one it was, one of them would work.

I've always thought that providing the logo that you create has a certain aesthetic to it. Whatever it is it should be fine. And the other thing that I've always thought about this as well is that you give a project to a thousand graphic designers, there might be some similarities but every single one of them will be different. So to argue that there's only one solution, I think is ridiculous. So presenting a few options to your client that could be right for the business. I like to show two, three options and involve the client so that they feel that sense of ownership. I think that's important.

Why you shouldn't design just one logo solution

Sophia Ahamed: Yeah. I think so. And I think it also helps you push the envelope a lot more. I find that sometimes you might create a produce line or a prototype that you really, really love and you feel like you nailed it.

And there's times where maybe you have. But when you're pushing to do two or three other ways of looking at this from a different perspective, it pushes you to extend past that initial, I think I got it feeling. And I think a lot of the times, often we're left surprised that oh, actually I kind of like this second concept a lot better. Or the third one actually really nails it more so. It really speaks to the goals and the idea of the work itself.

And so it pushes you from a creative and artistic point of view and allows the client, again, to see things from a different perspective. A perspective that they may not have considered. Which, again, just goes to reinforce the work and gives them a better shot in the marketplace, and allows you to really do your job and do it well.

So that's what I find to be very beneficial for us when we're working on two to three concepts. But I think at the end of the day, whether you're doing one or two or three, just make sure that you're doing the job right. You're meeting those goals. You're meeting your expectations. You're considering all areas and you're doing good work.

I would never present anything to a client if I wasn't happy. Of course there's always concepts that you find to be a little bit more favourable or things that you enjoy a lot better on a personal note. But I would never present anything to a client where I literally feel like oh, this is horrible. Here it is. I would never do that. I would take it back to the drawing board and do something that I felt equally as proud of.

Ian Paget: I think it's important to put some stress on something that you did say and weirdly this came up in an interview that I was listening to last week with Emily Oberman. I think Debbie Millman did an interview with Emily Oberman from Pentagram. And I can't remember the graphic designer's name (Tibor Kalman) but she worked with quite a famous graphic designer when she was young, so straight out of university. And one of the lessons that she got from this particular graphic designer was that you shouldn't just go with the first idea that you think is the perfect solution.

It might be the perfect solution but you still need to go through the whole process to work out if it is actually the best solution. You need to confirm that it's the best solution. And like you mentioned, because you are wanting to present multiple options, you don't just stop at that one that you think is great. Because I've had that so many times. I've sat down and thought this is the one. This is the best thing I've ever done. But ah, you need to create a couple of more options. And then I keep exploring and keep experimenting and sometimes I can't work out anything that's better than that. And then something comes up and it's like, this is just so much better than that other option and if I was only presenting one, I think I would stop too early.

And I think it's good to try and push to that length. But anyway, the most important thing is, like you said, and I think I said it earlier as well, is don't present anything that you're not happy with because that's when things go wrong. Because if you presented something rubbish and the client picks it, whose fault is it? You can't blame the client because you did the work and you showed it to the client. You need to be confident and happy with absolutely every option in that scenario.

Sophia Ahamed: Absolutely. Because the work represents your client and their product. Also represents you as the agency as well. But you just want to make sure that you're doing good work. And again, it kind of goes down so many avenues, like if you wouldn't wear that, if you wouldn't eat that, you wouldn't give it to somebody else.

And if you're unhappy with the work, it has to go back to the drawing board until you feel like yes, this is something that you're proud of and that the client would be proud of if they had it on their product. And again, it goes back to that discovery of meeting those goals and that there's a rhyme and reason behind what you're doing. So that's, I think, very, very important.

Ian Paget: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I think that's a really good point to wrap up the interview. A really good kind of message to share to the world. Sophia, I think has been an absolutely brilliant episode. For listeners, this is actually the second time that we recorded this and I think this interview, because we've spent a fair amount of time together now, this episode is way better than the original one that we did.

I think we touched on a lot of things that should hopefully have a real impact on people, especially what we spoke about not regretting anything and making the change not just for you but for others and time is limited. So hopefully we've inspired a few people out there. But Sophia, thank you so much for coming on and thank you for being happy to do this once again. I think it's totally been worth it. It's been great to have you on.

Sophia Ahamed: Absolutely. Thank you for having me again. I'm always happy to chat with you. It's always so great. I think we really are on the same wavelength in many ways. I'm very happy to do this. Thank you again for having me.

Ian Paget: Oh, you're very welcome. It's been really great to speak with you.

Sophia Ahamed: You too.