Lessons from Hospitality for Running a Better Design Business

Ian Paget: So today I'm joined by Thad Cox and this has been a long overdue conversation. I mean, Thad is somebody that I've known in the industry for what is it, like 10 years now. We finally got to meet in person a few months back at Morepalooza and since I'm getting back to doing the podcast, especially since we just met up in person as well, I thought this was the perfect opportunity to speak with you, learn more about your journey, and allow my audience to get to know you in the process. So I think the best place to start with this would be, as I mentioned prior to hitting Record, that I would really like to go through your journey. And I know here today you've got Oakmont House, which is your design studio, would you describe it as that?

Thad: It is a long time. Yes, that would be accurate. Yes, that's where most things end up.

Ian Paget: Sure, okay. So here today you have your own design studio, which I feel is a dream for a lot of creative people, but I always think it's important for people to have an understanding of the background behind that, that you didn't just wake up one day and decide you're going to do this. It was a gradual progression. I have done a little bit of research into this, but I want you to sort of tell your own story. So I know that you did a degree in graphic design and that you shifted to work in marketing. But do share some of that early story of how you originally got into design, branding, marketing and so on?

Thad: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's that thing of they say that when you look backwards, it's easier to connect the dots. So I can tell you now, like none of this, there was no strategy to this. Or if there was, it was very short. It wasn't, there was no long-term thinking. So yeah, I've had quite a varied career. As you said, I did a degree in graphic design at Kingston. I always had a real love for sort of creativity. So I punted that sort of toward the end of the degree to try and get a job in advertising. And I worked in advertising for probably about a decade as an art director and creative director, mainly doing kind of TV ads for quite big brands, which I loved. That was fantastic.

Along the way, I got addicted to football coaching and did my coaching badges through the London FA. I got a job as Fulham's creative director of their academy. So not Fulham, I did my badges through Fulham. It was Brentford, actually, but I got really into the football coaching side of things. So I was doing that alongside the advertising and it was around that kind of time. Advertising was, I was so happy in it. I really enjoyed the people I worked with and the opportunities it gave you, but I just had my kids. So it was a case of, I was definitely aware that missing out on weekends and evenings was starting to kind of, it was definitely a factor. And we have a hotel and restaurant in Cornwall and my parents were really struggling with that. And they said, would you consider coming back to run it for a couple of years? And so we thought, well, you know, it's, it'll give us something to do. We can stand on there for a couple of years, be nice for the kids and then we can come back. And that couple of years probably ended up being around 10, 12 years actually, where I ran the hotel and the restaurant during that time.

It did, you know, we were very lucky. It sort of, I had a great team of people. It was very successful. And I was, I guess from a design point of view, I didn't give up the freelancing. So quite often I was freelancing on reception. So I'd sort of managed to do both running those businesses and freelancing. And then when we decided to switch that from a hotel to a holiday let, we split it into three holiday lets. That is when I started my studio, because I wanted to do that full time. I kind of always wanted to do the branding and design full time. And I think the branding allowed me to combine a lot of the creativity I'd learned in advertising and then kind of my traditional design background. So that's what we did. And now I run that and I run my studio. And then I've been running my studio probably for about 10, 12 years now and we do sort of a range of different projects for a whole range of clients. I've been quite lucky to work on some quite big stuff. And now I mainly split my time doing the branding work within the studio and then I offer a couple of other services. So one is called the signature service, which is where we build out a unique offering or service for our clients. And the other thing is the creative heist, which is where we run like pitching, but through the lens of a Hollywood heist movie. As you can sense, I can't stay interested or focused for long, but that's what I'm doing currently and I'm very happy doing it.

Ian Paget: I know one thing that has run through all of that is the creative side. So even though you've worked in different sectors like, you know, within the hotel industry and you've done your football coaching and other things, there is this common theme from when you were quite younger to now where you've had that interest in business and the creative side. I'm really curious. So you mentioned that while you were working within the hotel industry with your family, that you did the work on the side basically, that you were still doing a little bit of graphic design work while doing that job as well. Do you feel that if you didn't do that, like say if you just went that 12 years and you did no design work at all? Do you think that you would be in the position where you would be able to build your own agency or did that play a pivotal role?

Thad: I think one thing, I think if I'd taken a break for 12 years, I'd be concerned at the fact that I hadn't done that. You know what I mean? Like, where's the passion gone? So I think it kept me sane, but also it was kind of, I really wanted to keep doing it. The best thing about running the hotel was it taught me about business. I think that, you know, because it was, it's a real sort of Jekyll and Hyde thing, in the way I would have run my design freelance business was kind of quite reactive and quite instinctive. Yet when I had to be the hotel manager, I knew all the figures, I knew the numbers. I was obsessed with sort of getting it all right. We also had a Michelin star for a while as well. So I knew what it felt like to have to be involved in that. And also just when you had people then pitching to you, so agencies would pitch to us to do our website or do photography and all these kinds of things. So you really saw it from both sides and that was really super helpful. I think I learned a huge amount from being the client and also understanding your figures and having to be very, very organized in knowing exactly how much things were costing, what your budgets were, what you were spending. And then also, because it was a seasonal business, there's all of that. And then the whole thing is also you're building culture, you're managing people. And all of that, I think, has really, really helped me when it came to setting up my own thing, because I enjoy doing that, but I'm much more business savvy than I would have been if I'd, I guess, kept freelancing and just eventually set up on my own, I suspect.

Ian Paget: So I know you've talked through that then, but when you talk about things like the numbers, I consider myself a graphic designer. So most of my projects are logo design projects. I do provide a little bit of strategy within that as well, but I don't see myself as a strategist. And my background prior to this has been working with design companies, like leading up teams within companies. I'm really curious, when you do talk about the numbers, are you able to sort of share what specifically do you mean by that? Is it like how much you charge, how you track things? What are you referring to when you do talk about the number side of things?

Thad: Yeah, so I think the big thing for the numbers side of things for me, the two things that happened right in the hotel is it broke my relationship with time. So where I would normally would have said, I say nine to five when I worked in advertising, it was eight to late. So it was long days. But in the hotel, the shifts were different. So I'd start six, finish at 10, that'd be breakfast. Then I'd be off in the day. Then I'd do four o'clock till 10 reception in the evening. So that was really interesting because you're kind of like, I've got time in the day to do stuff. And if it's quite quiet, I can also do stuff on reception. So you're learning to manage your time differently. But from the numbers point of view, it was, I was very sure of what my costs were.

So for me, when it came up to pricing things, I knew exactly what I had to price to break even. And then I knew I had targets I wanted to hit to be profitable. And so understanding the difference between revenue and profit and understanding that, you know, how much you've got to pay towards taxes and all these other bits and bobs. That really helped me because I guess when you're pricing a design project, I have to factor in what are my personal costs and then what are my business costs. And that gives me a baseline figure to then work off. And that increases over time. So a four week project and a six week project cost a different amount for me. And I found that I was doing projects that would be quoted for say four weeks, and they would drag on by a couple of weeks and I wouldn't think anything of it but it was only like, I'm actually losing money now.

The profit I'd factored in is being eaten away because I'm not finishing it enough. And it was the thing of once I understood that and then, because again in the hotel you would work out, right, we have this many rooms, I need this many staff, therefore the average cost of a room is going to cost me this, therefore I need to be charging that to be breaking even, I need to charge this to make enough profit. And so you're very, the way I would price all of our services and more importantly, negotiate with people. So when people would say, look, if you've got any deals or what's the best price you could do, I was aware of what I could and couldn't give in a way. So when it came to pricing my own work, I always made sure that I was breaking even and providing for my family. And then I would make sure I would try and stretch myself to be pricing to be, so I'm paying myself a salary, I'm putting money aside. And I think that was a big switch for me.

I estimated my bills and I was like, well, if I can cover that, I'm fine. But I didn't really factor in how long are you going to be working on this project for? And the thing that actually, one of the things, the projects that really hit home was this lady who lived locally, she was an illustrator and she wrote a book called Sparkle Puss. And it was a fictional book she'd made up about a cat and some chocolate. And it was based on our hotel and in the garden. And she was sort of saying, I really want to get this book designed. Do you know any designers? And I thought, well, I might be able to help her. She seems very nice. And I said, look, I can design the book. It's not like huge. I think it was like 30 pages. I said, look, I'll do it for 600 quid. I was really happy with that. And she was like, it's quite a stretch, but okay. I think that project lasted more than six months. It just dragged and dragged and dragged. And in the end it was like, God, I wish I just said no. And that thing of you then go, if only I'd priced this properly or I'd been more strict on the deadlines or had a better process, I wouldn't have been put in this position. So for me, after that, I was always very aware of, and also like having systems and processes in the hotel to make sure everything was done for quality control and efficiency. So again, if I'm running a project, I'm making sure it's as efficient as possible and I try and stick to the same period of time so I can control those costs. So really, for me that was what that taught me. And then I think what also which was quite nice is it made me less concerned about what other people were charging because I find that often you go online and people will say you know, I've landed these massive projects and I used to kind of feel inadequate. You know, you go, well that's they must be better than me. I've been doing this ages and I can't get that kind of money. But again, because I had a business coach through the hotel, he would be going on about yeah, but how much of it is profit? Like revenue is all very well, but profit's the thing we want here and we want to work at it. So again, you detach yourself from being in this comparison, sort of league of people where the top people charge the most. And then you go, well, I don't care, like good for you. As long as I'm profitable and I'm able to put money towards like a deposit on a house or pay for a holiday, then for me, that's the main thing. And then it became about, well, if I know what I have to charge. If I can become more efficient at doing it in a shorter period of time, then that frees up more time. So again, I'm starting to take back control of what I'm doing with my family. So for me, a lot of that was what I learned in the hotel. And that was just because I had to, because you just got people expecting you to know, and every week you're doing the bookkeeping and the figures. And we had it with them when I had our salon as well. It's the same thing every week. I'm doing the figures. You're looking at this and you're getting quite granular.

Ian Paget: I think one of the things that you mentioned, you mentioned that project with the lady in the book. I know with a lot of my logo design projects, something that I factor in is to quantify literally everything. So I had some really early projects where this was when I was still working full time for another company. So any project I took on was kind of like fun, really. So early on, I thought I could get away with unlimited changes basically. And I thought I could get full control over this. I'm not going to have the problems that the company I worked for have because I genuinely naively thought the clients I'm going to work with aren't going to be like that. But that was very naive. And I've since learned that anything like round of changes, time spent on a project, literally every single little thing within the project is quantified in some shape or form. And I think that's that's really useful for say like scenarios like that project with the book. If we're going over a certain amount of changes, there's a cost to it. What is that cost? It's all like detailed out in the contract. So I know when projects start that, I've got a good idea of how long a project typically takes. Worst case scenario, it's going to take this long and then I can factor that in and like you, you become less concerned about what the competitor, what competitors are doing because you know that you're covering your cost, your living cost. Yeah, exactly. So it works for me. So I think all of that's a really good point.

Thad: Yeah, you're profitable for you. You want to give the illusion of control. So like a menu is illusion of control because you think you have choice, which you do, but the restaurant has determined the choice in advance. So they haven't just said, do you fancy tonight? And I think in the project, it's the same thing. You want to be able to allow the client to feel they have plenty of opportunity to give feedback and include them in the process. It's all being taken care of. So like the same way that if you're running a restaurant and you want to try and sell dessert. The way you would clear the tables of going, can I get you anything else or just the bill or who's got room for dessert? It's two different options. And it's like, one is upselling the other. One is getting you off the table because they've got other people coming in. You don't notice a difference particularly. But for me, that would be the thing of like, as you said, if you can make the process as controllable as possible, I do believe little things like the language you use. The unlimited revisions thing can be dangerous because it just becomes the pattern. So I would, yeah, I'd recommend if you can get down to a number of revisions that you feel you still have control over the project and you can create good output and just run that every time and use the language to reinforce the way that's going to work. I think everything's fine with that.

Ian Paget: I think with this type of thing, something that I do, when things go right, it's because I have a productized systematized product offering. And logo design falls into that. So every step of the process, I have set in stone processes, templates, documents, everything like that. Like it's a very predictable, repeatable system throughout every step of the way, and I know exactly what's going to happen in every scenario from the good situations to the bad situations. Where I personally slip up is when I do something different to what I normally do. So I don't normally do web design very often anymore, even though I used to design websites in my previous full-time position, and it's something that I can do. Because I don't have that predictable repeatable system and processes in place. That's when there's the scope creep and the issues where it ends up costing too much, just because I haven't factored any of that into contracts or scenarios. So I find it interesting what you said here, because if you think like a menu, all of those are predictable, repeatable products.

Thad: Yeah, they have to be. They have to be. Because otherwise the kitchen would just be a nightmare. But it is, yeah. No, again, it's the illusion of control. Because I've had this conversation with someone about, surely having a process removes all creativity. I was like, well, if you go to a tailor and they do a bespoke fitting, what do you think happens? It's a process. It's just the bit that is bespoke to you is the bit that matters. The rest of it is whatever they do every time. They don't start from scratch every time. It's a systematized process. The only way you can survive is doing that because you control your costs and you control the outcome. The thing is, I remember a long time ago, I was listening to this guy called Jack Butcher, who I quite like, and he said that clients are coming for, they want to see the outcome of your process. That's what they're coming for. So without the process to determine the outcome, that's where it's hard for people to pick you because they want to see that, oh, so you've done that's how you work and it generated that result for that type of client. And you've done it repeatedly and it's worked every time. I want that certainty. So yes, you're completely right. And I think the other thing I say to people is we've all stayed in hotels when it's time to check out. And often we would remind people at breakfast of when the checkout time was and when their bill was ready. Because nobody wants to check out late and get fined. I don't want to fine them. But again, if you're just reminding people with your communication, they're not surprised at what's coming up. And I think sometimes the hospitality thinking is really helpful. Just good communication eliminates all of this kind of back and forth, because you try and explain like, this is what we're doing, this is what's coming up next, this is what I need from you. And it's really, you know, now they feel understood and involved and it's much easier.

Ian Paget: Interesting. Out curiosity with your agency, is everything like a menu now because of this?

Thad: Not really, but it's productized as in like I have to I want to run the best process I've got each time because it gives me something to build from. So it's very much whatever I run I'm looking to improve it with each iteration. So we've got it sort of dialed in so we're happy. It just is, I know from a business point of view, it's much easier to do that because you control your costs and the outcome and people will come to you for the outcome. That's the thing.

Ian Paget: Yeah, there's a book that I read several years ago, The E-Myth Revisited, which is a really good book and that goes into processes, systems and stuff like that.

Thad: Yes, yeah. It's all about a bakery, isn't it? Is that right? She takes over her aunt's bakery, is that the one?

Ian Paget: It's so long ago that I've read it. It's like a good 10, 15 years I read the book. So I can't remember specifically what the book covered. I do know what's kind of stuck with me is the processes and the systems. Because if you can imagine a lot of people when they want to start their own company, they're used to working in a company, not on a company. So when you are, say like you work for a design studio, they've been super successful and then you leave, a lot of designers or entrepreneurs, people that are starting out companies, they struggle and then they can't succeed. And it's because they're working in the business rather than on it. So this goes through how you should be working on your systems, your processes. And I think McDonald's is a perfect example, even though I know it's food, but they have very set in stone structures and systems for everything. So you could almost, you could literally swap out any person. They don't have to be skilled in any way because somebody has planned it, structured it and worked out what happens in every possible scenario. And that stuck with me and it's why I'm so in favor of productized systematized businesses. But it's also really hard when you're a designer because I frequently have clients that say, you know, can you help with this? I'm like, sure. You know, it's extra money coming in and I'm not going to say no to that because, you know, I've got certain numbers that I want to hit and it's just a no brainer. But the more I move away from the systematized stuff that, you know, where I've got templates, processes and all that sort of stuff. That is always where if something's going to go wrong is always in those scenarios rather than the situations where I've just got a set in stone process. And like you said, it's got freedom, so you still can be creative and the client doesn't feel like they are just a cog in your system. So there's still the creativity and so on.

Thad: Well, you can all... Yeah, well, they call it a turnkey business, and that's why McDonald's franchise is worth so much, because you just, literally, they turn a key and it all works. They've worked it out for you. I remember when we used to go and present ideas to McDonald's, you could have anything you wanted from the current menu in reception, because they're training everyone how to cook it, or how to do it, like in McDonald's. I want to say it's called McDonald's University. It's somewhere in North London. But it's amazing, like that whole franchise thing. And I was teaching people about processes. And I went to Starbucks, which again is another turnkey business. They, if you asked them, well, the one where we are in Windsor, I asked him, said, have you got your manual, your process? Can I have a look at it? And he's like, yeah, sure, here it is. And you see every, it's like a big thing and they just go through it you can see everything is broken down. And it is so like, it's a weird one, but as you say, we've all been to Starbucks and we feel there's an element of customization. I can have it pretty much however I want.

Ian Paget: It's such good advice that like everything that you drop there in the last like few minutes is so valuable. Because I think for me, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing now if I didn't work for a company for 11 years and, you know, scale up to end up being on the team of directors. I didn't think about going around and picking people's brains. I wish I did now because I could probably have learned a lot more about things like sales and accounting and project management and stuff like that. But I did pick up stuff along the way, you know, whether I knew it or not. So I think that's like that's some of the best advice I've heard for anyone that wants to do their own thing.

Thad: The other thing I would say, which I've also talked to students about is this concept of the second portfolio. So when we were trying to get a job in advertising, the way you would eventually get a job is you had to go, because I learned advertising from scratch. What you realize is that, what I talk to the students is that if you find nice people, most people if they say, look, can I show you my portfolio? And you want to show them the best, most finished version of the work you've got, but it won't do anything for them. So a second portfolio is the work you're working on currently, which isn't quite finished. So what we would do is, and I encourage anyone to do this.

You go to someone and go, I really love your work. I'd love help with my portfolio. I've got a few projects I'm working on. I'd love some feedback if you've got five, 10 minutes. Most creative people are nice enough to go, yeah, happy to help. They'll give feedback on the work, and again, because it's not finished, that allows them to contribute, because they can see like, that's quite good, I would change this, do this. And then you go, look, if I do those changes, can I come back and show them to you, do mind? And they'll be like, yeah, fine. Because nobody ever comes back. But if you go back with those changes, they'll be blown away. And then when you go back, go, I'm really pleased, thank you for helping that one. I've actually got another one I'm working on, have you got five minutes? And if you tend that your second portfolio, your first one is your polished one that you would send to everyone is like, this is my best work. The second one is the Trojan horse to get in the door to build the relationship with the creative director. And the reason why it matters is similar to what I said is when you're hiring someone, when you look at loads of portfolios, you don't know what the person's like to work with or how long it took them to do the work or what level they were working at. Versus their work, if they, you've worked with someone, they know exactly how you take feedback, how punctual you are, how friendly you are, how creative you are. They'll always go with like, the portfolio is not bad, but they're great. So I'm going to get them in.

And the second portfolio is the thing that you're probably already working on anyway, but you're scared to share publicly. That is the perfect excuse to reach out to people, to build those relationships. I feel the second portfolio, which people are all working on who are listening, you want to share something that isn't finished because it allows the other person to contribute to it. And if they contribute to it, they have slight ownership in it. So they're more invested into how it goes. So when you bring it back, they'll feel kind of pleased because you've listened to them, your changes have made it, their changes have made it better. And they've actually gone, this is good. So I would say that's the other thing to consider. Loads of us are sitting on ideas that we don't think are finished. And the mistake is to go, I must get it perfect before I share it. But in doing so, it's already finished and nobody wants to be part of an idea that they can't contribute to.

Ian Paget: Man, that's so good. I mean, when I think back to designers that are memorable within the LogoGeek community, it has always been the people that share something, want some input, and then actually listen and take it on board and make those updates. Because like you said, I think most people, most designers in particular, when they share their work, it's the finished thing. And yeah, you can give feedback on it, but they don't really want it. They just want to show it off. But actually, you know, sharing something that's not complete and reaching out to somebody that you admire. And I found from my own personal experience that pretty much anyone within the design industry is accessible. Sometimes you need a little bit of effort, but pretty much everyone is accessible in some way. So going in and asking for advice and making updates to your work make you so memorable. That's such great advice.

Thad: Yeah, and actually, as you said, following through to do it because people don't and they don't expect you to do it. So that's the other thing. You are by the very nature of just doing the changes they recommended and going back to them, you're immediately putting yourself in the top 1% of people. They know that well, you're quite good to work with because you take feedback well, you're open-minded to making changes. If you make the changes quite quickly and you're like in touch again, it shows you're quite efficient and practical. These are all factors that are not conveyed through a portfolio.

Ian Paget: I love this. Okay, I feel like I want to just dig into more of these tidbits to be honest. Like you're offering such good advice. Let's... I do want to spend a little bit time going through your agency, so...

Thad: I can tell you the reason behind the name, which is a crap reason, if you want to know that one. I don't really like the name, but I remember what I did was at the time, because I was working in hospitality, I was very much thinking, well, I run a hotel. This gives me a big advantage if I want to do hospitality branding. The issue was people would come to me with a whole range of work. So my intention was, I want to do an agency that does restaurant and hotel branding because that's the industry I know really well. So I was thinking, and I named things differently so I can get into how I name businesses, but I was like, well, I probably need to sound like I fit within that industry. It was the only way I came up with the name. So I looked up on Wikipedia, like the most expensive roads in the world and expensive places. And I basically just forced two together until I could get the domain names. And that's at Oakmont House.com is available. I'll take it, that'll do. But I think partly because it was so arbitrary is why I'm not that attached to it, but it's too late now. But yeah.

Ian Paget: I really like that you don't like it because you are moving with it anyway. I think this is one of the biggest things that once you like don't let a name hold you back because from my perspective I totally got what you were trying to do because I got it. It's like okay, you've worked in the hotel hospitality sector. Your website, and I know, you know, prior to having this conversation, you mentioned that, you know, that you're bored of the website, but I totally got the, like the vibe that you're trying to get. When I came on there it is very high end. It feels like a company that's specifically targeting high end hospitality type businesses. And even though you don't like it, it feels to me right for the target audience.

Thad: Which is what I was intending. It felt like if it sounds like it fits, it could be the name of a little boutique place. And so that was more what I was going for. So I just was like, but I wanted to be quite random. I never needed to. I was always quite busy. I've got to stick with it now. So there we go.

Ian Paget: And rolling with it. And since you don't, are you planning to change it at some point or just roll with it because it works?

Thad: I know my accountant would kill me because she's got everything registered in that name. So I think it would cause too much trouble. I think no, because it's also it's just one of those things. It's naming is very peculiar, but I think it's we get too obsessed with it, like too fixated on it ourselves. We're too close to it. So I realize it probably it's fine and it will do. And it's probably better for me to put my energy elsewhere. As you said, you kind of got to go with it and just accept it. It's not terrible.

Ian Paget: Okay, so I'm also aware based on what you described earlier that you essentially started with a room. Is that right? That you literally had a location for this design studio before you started it? Or did you come up with the studio name and idea and have clients before you actually had that?

Thad: So no, it was just a case of I just wanted to come up with a name that felt appropriate and that was it. I know that when I first started, well, I got really fixated. I wanted to get an office space out of the Hoxton in Southwark. But in the end, just felt actually the costs of doing it and the traveling with the train, it wasn't worth it. So I had to detach my, my ego wanted it, but I was aware that I'd have to pay for that and it wasn't worth the extra stress. So I've always tried to keep it quite low. And also it's the thing of you realize clients are very easy, working remotely and everything I had to do. It sounds ridiculous, but I did a remote campaign to go across Times Square, like all remotely over like WhatsApp. And it was kind of like you realize that this is all completely possible because we're all connected and we know what we need to do. So you kind of go, the office thing is less relevant.

Ian Paget: So do you currently work from an office or do you just have like a space at home where you work?

Thad: So we built an extension at home, which I'm sat in. I work in that and it's kind of, it does the job really. I got really fixated on wanting an office for a long time, but then it just wasn't really practical because I'd just take a space to work within whatever house we were in. And you realize that clients weren't bothered and I was happy to travel to them. So I think it was just this thing of, I think it was a hangover. Like I always thought you had to have a cool office, but it doesn't, the work's what matters. So I've given up that. I'm happy to visit clients and go traveling into London to meet them. So that's fine.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I think, I think that's an important point because it's very easy to believe that you need like a dedicated office space. I've done the co-working spaces and all that sort of stuff. I think something that like really surprised me early on, I, because I've been doing things like my podcast, I've been lucky enough to meet up with some well-known designers. And there was this guy I'm with in London and it was funny, I remember going, I went to his place and it fascinated me how famous designs, like well-known identity design, well-known logos were literally designed on this little desk in the corner of his bedroom. And that always fascinated me that, like the, you know, that it's quite easy to assume that, you know, that work is done in these fancy design studios and these offices and all this sort of stuff. But at the end of the day, you just need a computer and your ideas.

Thad: Yeah, well, I think that's true though, isn't it? Because if you look at like agencies in movies, they're always set. I used to work in those big flash shining agencies. They're great. But yes, as you said, the ideas and the work happens in a small office upstairs or wherever you are. The thing that did it for me was I was like, if I have to have an office, I would look to the cost of it. And I was like, well, it's probably about a thousand pounds a month. That's 12,000 pounds a year. I've got to find a client to pay for that already. And then if I'm going to be doing this, already kind of, I'm beholden to what work I can take on in order to pay for an office that my ego wants. And often, if it means that the client isn't very exciting, but they pay well, then the work I'm doing for that year in order to justify the office I'm not enjoying. And I can't bring people in on the projects because it's not exciting. You're kind of, and then how much am I going to want to really be here? I want control of my time really. So actually I found, yeah, just to accept it's okay and actually just meet with people and go and meet them. And actually, they appreciate if anything the fact you're willing to go and travel to them. They love that. So you go, actually that's fine with me.

Ian Paget: And out curiosity, so do you just work for yourself? I know earlier you mentioned about having a VA. How does that work? Do you hire staff to do additional work?

Thad: Well, yeah, so I've not got like salaried staff because I think it's kind of, it's project dependent. So usually I'm on a monthly retainer with her. So she helps with everything for me. And then depending on what the project is and the size of it, I'll bring people in as and when's needed really. I'm sort of in between doing both, but yeah, normally I would scale up and scale down based on what's required. And it depends on, like I said, I work with a friend on a project. So for me, it's so easy to work with anyone anywhere that it doesn't really matter. And I'd rather have the flexibility to hire the right people for the project and do it that way. So it's a case of, like I said, I did the hotel for years having people salaried and it's different, but I just feel again, I didn't want the added pressure of, I just saw so many small agencies on that treadmill of having to get work in to pay for everyone and the work was suffering. So people weren't enjoying creating it and it's like what you've started has become a bit of a chain. So I'm always very careful to go like, where do I need talent to do the things I'm bad at, which is what Julia does for me. And like I said, I just hire people as and when I need them based on what's required.

Ian Paget: That's a really nice way of working because it allows you to scale without the added pressure of needing to pay for a team of people and all that sort of stuff. I think it's nice to know that that's a possibility for some people. I also think, and I've got, I've got the feeling that you're similar to this is you, you always need to remember why you're doing what you're doing. And for me, one of the reasons why I want to work from home is so that I can be there for my daughter. That's like my, my little one is the reason why I decided to finally take the leap because I wanted to be at home when she took her first steps, her first words and, you know, and be there to collect her from school and, you know, just be in her life in a way that people don't, well, people can't when they're tied into these nine to five jobs.

Thad: But that's a huge, yeah, you're very lucky to recognize that early on. Because I think that I knew that when I first started to think about leaving advertising was that because you would come home so late, you were constantly sort of missing out on seeing your kids. And you're very aware of that. But I remember I used to feel very inadequate doing the school run. I kind of always felt I left advertising too early and I never fulfilled my potential. And you end up sort of very bitter, you know, quite jealous and quite like annoyed. And it took me a long time to get over it. But it's this thing of where I really appreciate it now is so like my kids are 20 and 18. So they're both off at uni, but we're immensely close because of exactly what you've talked about, the fact that I was able to do the boring school runs, but actually it's those little consistencies of spending time together is what builds that bond. And now we're immensely close because of it, because of basically whenever they wanted to talk to you, you were actually there. So you can always work when they're in bed, you can work when they're at school. And for me, having that control over your time to be able to be available when you need to be is probably the most important thing. So yeah, I totally get it. It is like building like a wall of paint, but just one layer of paint at a day. And it's like it's a minuscule layer that dries hard and you paint on top of it again. And over years it grows, but it's that's your relationship with your children. You can't fast forward that. You can't buy that. You can't sort of cheat it or download it. It's just time compounding over time. And that's so valuable. And I think, as I said, it's why now we're so close.

Ian Paget: Yeah, I feel very fortunate that I'm in the position where I can be at the front of the queue. That's one of my deal breakers. Like no client, nobody can take that away from me. Like I always make sure that I'm close to the front of the queue so that when my little one comes out, she does this thing where, you know, she walks out and I can see her looking and there's this little slight worried look on her face. And then she spots me and her face lights up. It's one of my things that I have to do that. No client can take that away. No amount of money can take that away. That's a deal breaker. That has to happen. So yeah.

Thad: That's so important that you recognize that. I think, as I said, you'll benefit. It will increase in value over time and you won't, and you can't get that back.

Ian Paget: I recognize more what I lost by sacrificing that, that time. And well, it did in part get recognized because I did get annual pay rises. So it did get recognized to some degree, but it was never worth it. Like I spent years and years and years grinding away working for somebody else. Looking back now is if I could go back and, you know, the moment five comes and stand up and go home, I would change that. So, you know, for me, I think it's so important to when you work for yourself to understand the reason why you're doing it. And it has to be something that's not work related and not money related. Like it shouldn't be a financial thing because money is just a means to an end. It's not the outcome that you want. Anyway, so we've been speaking for over an hour now. So there's so much that we could talk about. So we're probably going to have to book another session at a slightly later date to continue. Thad, it's been so great to spend time with you today. There's been so much great advice along the way. We've got to know you, we've got to know your journey, but there's just been some, you know, mic drop moments in this, which has been like, damn, that's great advice. So I found this really useful and I hope that people listening or watching have enjoyed this as well.

Thad: No, it's been a pleasure. I always love talking to you and you're very good at what you do and interviewing and getting those weird stories out of me. So if it helps anyone, I'll be pleased. So thank you.

Ian Paget: I'm sure it will.