Finding Your Passion & Turning It Into A Business

Dina Rodriguez: Well, I think like most people, when you have the nine to five, especially when you have some sort of artistic passion, and everyone tells you, "Oh, you can't make a living as an artist." So you do the second best thing, which is get a graphic design degree. Then you succumb to, "Oh, this is okay. I'm just going to compromise my values. Okay, next year. Oh, I don't need to find a new job. I'm fine here. I'm making good money."

You just keep on compromising. Then I think I just had a wake-up call when I was hearing about this, a few of my friends back in Orlando that were making real names for themselves. They went to college with me. When you are that close with someone for... because I went to Full Sail University. So it was a class of 15 kids, same kids every single semester. We would be in class together for eight hours a day, six days a week. You get to know these people very well.

You get kind of jealous, right? You feel the fear. You're like, "Why are they doing better than me?" Then I realised it's because they were following their passion, and I somehow got lost along the way.

So I went back to my roots. I realised I had been focusing so much on graphics, and pushing pixels, and doing all this different production work for really great companies, but something was missing for me. I think when I started to get my hobby back, which was drawing, something kind of clicked. And I knew I had to pursue this further, regardless if it was for money or not. I was just happy that I was finally doing what I always had set out to do since I was a kid.

Just being able to have something for myself was just such a game-changer. Even my boyfriend, and we've been together throughout this journey of me going from graphic designer to hand lettering artist to teachers, he said he saw a spark in me he didn't see before, and I was happier and more happy-go-lucky. I got a couple of those comments from my friends as well. So it was a whole life change. It isn't just improve your mood while you're doing it. It actually lifts you up throughout your day, so that was kind of a powerful... I just kept following my gut after that point.

Ian Paget: I just think it's fascinating that you actually really found your passion and that you've been able to make money from it. I think it's awesome. So I know that you discovered hand lettering, and you started to practice each day. You were doing that during lunch breaks and through to the night. At that point, were you doing a part-time job? Just so that I can understand.

Dina Rodriguez: Oh, yeah. I had moved to Portland, and that was when I really started to get super heavy into hand lettering because I didn't have any friends yet. I hadn't really gotten familiar with the scene, the hipster scene here in Portland, Oregon.

So I just was drawing a lot, but I did have a full-time job. It was kind of a weird situation. I started in as a web designer, and then that company got bought out by another company. Then I ended up somehow into social media marketing and was getting all these different certifications.

So it was a lot of learning in my new job, which kept me interested because I don't know about you, but I tend to get bored with a job after about six months to a year. So it was nice to be able to switch gears in a different role for a little while.

Yeah, I was hustling. I was working nine to five, and then I was drawing whenever I could. Then obviously trying to have some time with my boyfriend and friends that I eventually made here, and just trying to have a nice work-life balance, which I know pretty much everyone struggles with.

Ian Paget: I know you was practicing hand lettering. How did you go about doing that? Were you using any kind of reference or just basically sitting down, drawing letters as you felt?

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah, I think like most people, you just see all the cool guys on Instagram and Pinterest, and you're like, "I want to do that." So you see a phrase that you might be able to flip and make it your own. Sometimes I would just straight up copy people. I mean not to post, but just to practice to see like, "Okay. Well, how do they get that lick of the S," or, "How do I keep the tilt consistent?"

When I first started lettering, there wasn't any educational material out there at all. There was some old calligraphy books that were collecting dust at a library, but there wasn't as many tools, and guides, and videos as there are nowadays since it's kind of exploded. So I just kind of self-taught myself.

I don't think it was until I started getting into Sean Wes and listening to his podcast, and taking his... right when it came out. The lettering guide that he put was just a game-changer. I was like, "Oh. That's how you draw the letter A? That's how you keep your kerning consistent throughout your letters? Oh, snap. There's a bass-line I should be aware of." I had no idea. I was just kind of fumbling around in the dark before then.

Ian Paget: I've never actually taken his course myself, but I've seen a few of the free tutorials online, and there's just basic things like kerning, and he explains it in such a nice way. I don't know what was out there previously, but I know that he really changed the scene for anyone that was into hand lettering. So it's awesome that you were so inspired by that.

Dina Rodriguez: You might notice now that I teach a lot of lettering, and I also teach lettering on a college level, a lot of the things that I say come from that class from Sean Wes. People, when I teach courses or workshops, they're like, "Wait. Didn't Sean Wes said that?" I'm like, "He is a very wise man. If I quoted him every single time I said anything, all I would be saying is, "'Sean Wes, Sean Wes, Sean Wes, Sean Wes.'"

Ian Paget: Okay. You turned your passion into a business. Now, I'm keen to understand the steps that you took because what I hope that the listeners will get from this is that they could do the same thing. So could you talk through, okay, you found your passion. Okay, tick. What next?

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah. I think it's all about consistency. Anything you're trying to learn, you just have to work on it every single day, even if it's 10 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever you got. You put everything you have, dedicated, focused time, no TV, no screens. Just you and a piece of paper, old school. Then I just started posting things online.

It happened all very organically. I wasn't really pushing for anything. I wasn't immediately selling my service. I kind of was just posting on Instagram, and Twitter, and Pinterest, and all these different social media platforms. It wasn't until the audience that was following me started to tell me things like, "Hey, how much would it cost to get a logo done," or, "Hey, I'd love this as a printed t-shirt."

It's crazy. Thanks to social media, it's so much easier to build a following and actually have an audience that's loyal and really cares about you and the work you produce. So it was my first inkling of like, "Oh, wow. Someone actually finds me inspiring. What?" So once people started to give me all this positive feedback, it kind of gave me the confidence to start.

This was when I hit the first 1,000 followers on Instagram and was just feeling really motivated. So I took all of my marketing know-how, which I definitely recommend anyone who ever wants to do freelance or any business whatsoever, you have to learn marketing. It's not all about the pretty pictures. You have to understand demographical data. You need to understand how to pull in and engage an audience. Practicing's one thing, but you have to understand. You need to know the rhyme behind the reason, right?

So just blogging a lot. I was just teaching everything I possibly could, not only so I could build an even stronger following, but to also just better solidify my own knowledge.

So I was blogging weekly on lettering, and freelance, and creativity. Sometimes I'd talk about more personal things like my issues with social anxiety or how to get a better night's sleep, weird things like that. Just anything I could to just try to reach my arm into the universe of the internet, and, hopefully, someone could grasp my hand on the other side and follow along with me with this journey.

Once the blogs started rolling in, I was like 2,000 subscribers, 5,000 subscribers, 10,000 subscribers all within a six-month period. I'm like, "Okay. I'm doing something right." When the audience comes, the clients follow.

So I never had to cold call or do that thing where you send a bunch of art directors paper they're just going to throw away of your portfolio. People were starting to approach me for work. Then it was all about just figuring it out and having an established production process, and then just really trying to absorb... still absorbing content, still listening to the Sean Wes podcast, still reading all these articles from all these amazing influencers, and just learning from my mistakes, and just growing.

Then as I'm growing, sharing because there's always that rule of reciprocity that I think we have to remember. If you give someone something, they're going to want to give you something back. So if I give you free content that teaches you, you might buy a product in the future or you might talk to your friends about me. There's so many different ways you can pay me back. It's crazy.

As much as I've given out into the world of content, and articles, and videos even today, I still get back tenfold. I think that's the key to anything is just consistency, authenticity. That's an important one and also hard to say. Then just also being able to give as much as you can. That's pretty much what landed it for me.

Ian Paget: I can relate with that almost exactly because, in my case, it was when I started sharing stuff on social media that I started to get clients too. It makes a big impact on, I guess your SEO results and just basically people being able to find you. So I think that's a good lesson for everyone. If you want to do something, you just have to start putting your work out there consistently and building up a following. Like you said, clients will follow this also.

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah.

Ian Paget: I'm keen to talk through your process. Could you talk through how you would go about doing a hand lettering project from start to finish? So clients approach you. What happens next?

Dina Rodriguez: Okay. Let's say we're doing a logo design project. The first stage is I always like to really over-communicate with clients because anytime anything's ever gone wrong in the history of clients, it's always the designer's fault.

I truly believe that, and it comes down to a lack of communication or they weren't listening or they didn't read the contract or you didn't explain it in an easy enough way for them to understand it. So I think there's a big part of education that goes first. You're not giving away any industry secrets. You're not being paid. It's just being very curious and inquisitive, so asking as many questions as you think could help you to paint a better picture of what would be the visual graphic that would support their essence essentially.

So asking even weird questions like, "Hey, how much money do you plan to make this year? How do you get your audience? Is it through online marketing? Do you do door-to-door? Do you have a brick-and-mortar store?" Not only asking things like, "Hey, what kind of typefaces do you like," or, "What's your favourite colour?" No, I don't care about the client's personal preference. It's all about the audience. How can I get your audience to go, "Ooh, that's pretty cool," and actually make them remember you, and like you, and just have you rise to the top above your competitors, even just so slightly.

After the discovery phase, I like to... I mean if we could just do it in email, that's fine, but I prefer something like this, like a phone call or a video chat just because you're able to ask so many more, I think, better-influenced questions when someone's right in front of you versus email can be a little impersonal, and you can miss some opportunities there. After that, it usually takes, I don't know, a week depending on if it's an agency or a small business.

Then I send them a quote via email. The quote is super long. I warn them, "Hey, this email's a doozy pretty much. If you want me to walk you through it, I totally can." I talk about what my process would be, specifically when working with them.

Then I give them three options of price. So that way, instead of them just being like, "Oh, two grand, no thank you." It could be like two grand, four grand, and six grand, let's say. Then instead of it being a question of, hey, should I hire you? It changes to, "What should I hire you for?" So it's a nice, little flip perspective.

Once they pick a quote, and they usually... For a logo design, you have the design fee. Then you have the usage rights fee, which changes, obviously. If it's a pizza place down the street that just started or if it's Papa John's that's been around for a hot minute, the price would obviously be a little bit higher.

So once they have a quote, they have a good understanding what's happening, then I send them the proposal. A lot of people might think this is redundant like, "Okay. You sent them your process and pricing. Why are you doing it again?" Because I want to make sure they read the fine print. Also, I don't want to scare them away with my initial proposal with all my terms and conditions before they know what they're paying because I don't want them to have to dig through paperwork to understand my process.

So I give them the proposal. Again, I'm reinstating, "Okay. This is my process. This is the official price point. This is how many revisions might be included. This is the amount of time," all of the good stuff.

I have samples of my contracts on my website, so if anyone wants to check them out, they're available. They sign it. Cool, all right. Now, they have to pay a 50% deposit. I'm getting into crazy detail because I know this is the kid detail that people really want, not just like, "Oh, a discovery, and then I sketch." No, duh. So-

Ian Paget: I think you're right. People want all the juicy stuff. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking-

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah, they want how did you do that, what did you say, copy and paste your email. You know what I mean? Which I have done. People have emailed me because I've talked about this before. If you email me, I'll just send you a copy of these emails. It's no skin off my back. I have a template. It saves me time. I'll totally share it with you.

Ian Paget: I think what I'll do, Dina, is after the podcast, we'll have a separate chat, and we'll pull together links to these different resources you mentioned. I'll put them in the show notes with this episode.

Dina Rodriguez: Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll give you the proposal sample, the emails, all that stuff. Just don't copy and paste it, guys. Use your own voice. Your voice is just as important as mine. Okay. Where are we at? Proposal. Okay. Deposit. They have to pay a 50% deposit even for them to get in my schedule. I send them the invoice, they pay it. Cool.

Then I go ahead, and I send them another email, "Okay. Here is your official production schedule," even though it was already outlined in the proposal. Again, I'm going to over-communicate. I want to make sure you know exactly what's happening.

So I send you another email, "Okay. This is the deadline of when sketches are due. This is the deadline when I need your approval," because I need them to give me feedback within one business day because I don't like to dilly dally in projects.

I like to focus on one project at a time. If you take too long to respond, I'm going to get bored with your project and move one, and then have to cancel. So it's really important that we both know exactly what we need from each other in order to create a great project, right? So production schedule.

Then every Monday throughout this process, I send them another check-in email like, "Hey, just wanted to let you know everything's going fine. This is your next due date." Just constantly reminding them of everything, so that way, I don't get an angry email at 2:00 in the morning of a confused client that doesn't know when they're getting sketches. So it's all about preventing these communication issues, right?

Finally, it's production time. Yay. After all of that time and effort. Don't worry. You should be charging enough to more than cover your time if you're doing things right.

So I start my production process. I just, like most people, just a butt load of really dirty, ugly, rough thumbnails just trying to get as many ideas on paper as possible. I always like to use my imagination first before I look at any references because I don't want to copy anybody and also, we're supposed to be creative. So we need to be able to use our own beautiful imagination before we can use anybody else's, right?

So go ahead, think of as many as you can. Then if you're stuck, and you can't think of another concept after the 15th little rough sketch, then pop on over to Pinterest or Instagram or Dribbble is my personal favourite for inspiration. Then start to Frankenstein some of your best ideas together.

I like to make a design baby because there's usually elements of like, "Hey, I like the lick of that R," or, "I like this particular kind of filigree," or, "I like how this is bold," or, "This is slanted." It's kind of like so that way no matter what I do, my work never looks the same.

As some people might have noticed, I used lots of different styles. I'm not just that designer who just does brush script or the designer who just does sign painting. It's just pretty much everything.

So I got ahead, do my production process. I narrow it down to two final, high-fidelity sketches. Now, my process has changed over the years. So nowadays, I'll present two final sketches to my client. They can either, A, just choose one, make it really easy for me or, again, continue to Frankenstein things together.

At this point, if they would like a revision, they do get one. I used to not offer revisions, but I want to make the client as happy as possible. So I usually, when I just give them one round of revisions... I charge extra for revisions because let's say you're working, and you have a two-week deadline. Then your rate is $100 an hour, but if you're doing revision, usually, you need to make it in a day or two. So it should be more because you're producing it quicker. So it'd be like 150, just to give you reference.

We have the discussion. Very rarely do they ever have revisions at this point. They just offer it just so they feel a little bit more comfortable working with me, but I'm definitely not one of those designers who's like, "Unlimited revisions for $200." No thanks. I'm a professional. Let me do my job so that way you can be really effective at yours. That way, there's a mutual level of respect that's included within the process, which is so important.

Okay. They pick their piece, and then it's all about Photoshop. Nowadays, I have a beautiful iPad Pro. I like to use Astropad to screen mirror Photoshop to my iPad.

I use my Apple Pencil to really get in there and make it look as organic and clean as possible. If I'm doing a logo, I literally just image trace usually in Illustrator. I never whip out the Pen tool because I really like the integrity of the handmade, and I don't want it to look like a font. I don't want it to look perfect. I want it to look more authentic, more human. I want it to have that handmade element that just stands out from the crowd of minimalistic designs, right? So that's my shtick, right? The clients usually approach me because they want that same tone for their identity.

So I go ahead, I go into Photoshop. I fix it all up, clean it up. I get really zoomed in, pixel perfect, right? But with just the right amount of mistakes, right? Then instead of just presenting that final logo to the client... Now, at this point, there is no revisions because they've been a part of this production process the whole time.

I send them an entire presentation. I show them, "Okay. This is the art direction we discussed. These are the sketches. These are all the thumbnails. Here is all the different stages of colours for your identity. Here's me trying, still at the very end, sleeping on all the adjustments made, and really tweaking this thing out, and really just focusing real hard on this usually five-lettered logo, right?" Because the less letters and simpler it is, the more you have to watch out for those issues, especially with sizing and readability when it comes to just a hand-lettered logo.

So I create the presentation, which is essentially a case study. I go ahead, and I send that to the client. Once they approve that, I get that last 50% down. Then when they pay, I give them usually a printout. I send them a print, which I started doing once a client asked for it once, which I thought was weird.

So I literally just make these super long Pinterest-like images of the process, and I send that to the client as a keepsake. So a lot of my clients will send me pictures of these long posters that I make for them. I just print them off my printer and send them over. It's a nice, little added touch. Then I send, obviously, the final Vector files, and all the colour combinations. If they had paid for a branding guide, then I will include that, of course, too.

That's my process. I realise it's very long, but it works. I always have happy clients. In my entire six years of doing this, I've only ever had one client not happy with their logo, and that was because she didn't communicate. She just changed her mind mid-project, and then she ended up paying me another fee all over again to do it again. Then she was happy. So I'm going to say that's a successful process.

Ian Paget: Firstly, I want to say thank you for going into so much detail. There's a lot in there to take in. I have a few questions. You mentioned that you work in Photoshop, and I know we've spoken about this in the past already, but could I just ask just so that the people listening understand? What's the reason why you use Photoshop in this case rather than Illustrator?

Dina Rodriguez: I like Raster. Raster can hold more of the nuances of a pen, and I use brushes that represent Micron Pens, and Sharpies, and that I've gotten from RetroSupply on Creative Market. I plug them a lot because I fricking love all of their products. It's just all about making it look like a person actually drew it. I do not like clean design. I've never liked it. Even when I was a designer, and it was all the rage, and I was doing web design, I freaking hated it. It was almost impossible for me to just be excited to go to work because it just was more of the same and boring.

If you look at any of my work now, not for a logo, but let's say we're doing a cover of the magazine, I like to fill every nook and cranny with something. I like to put doodles. I want it to just look more inviting and warm.

To me, clean, perfect, 90-degree angle Bezier handles in Illustrator... I know how to do all that stuff. I just don't enjoy doing it. It just doesn't have the right tone that I think a hand-lettered logo or a hand-lettered piece needs. It's like, "What's the point of making it all clean and perfect if it's a hand-lettered piece of art? You know what I mean? That's just from my perspective. There's enough designers out there that can rock the Pen tool.

Ian Paget: Okay. The next question I have, you mentioned that you charge extra for changes. Now, I know a lot of people are going to be really curious about how you do this. So when does the client have the opportunity to say, "I'm not sure about that direction? Could we take this direction?" Because I wouldn't say that was necessarily a change. How are you handling with that type of thing?

Dina Rodriguez: Usually, the time for revisions is during the sketch process just because it's so much easier to make a change, and you don't want to go too far down a road, and then have to completely change it. So it's always about just time management.

Ian Paget: So it's basically those two sketches that you're showing the client, that's essentially the opportunity for the client to say, "I'm not sure about that particular direction. Could we do something a little bit more like this?"

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Am I correct?

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah.

Ian Paget: Okay. Then so at the end once it's all finished, it's a final product. You're basically sending it to the client and if they do want changes at that point, you then charge.

Dina Rodriguez: I don't allow for changes after the final presentation. Yeah, so that's why it's just super clear communication. I totally skipped a step while I was talking about the process because there's so many things.

I know not every designer likes to mood board, but I like mood boards. I'm a big fan of Pinterest. So the first thing we do is during all that research, and I'll go into their analytics for their website, their social media presence.

Instagram has great analytics now, which is so amazing. Thank you, Facebook, for putting that in there. So I really just do a lot of research. Then I create a mood board. I get crazy detailed like, "This kind of stroke with this kind of colour with this kind of lick. This is the varied weight structure that I want the lettering to have. I want it to be on this arch, and this container, and this layout."

I'm literally Frankensteining and making a baby without doing anything. There's no production work. It's all just me talking. It's literally me and the client just picking and choosing what we like, what we don't like.

So I have a super clear picture of what our art direction is moving forward. So they know from the very beginning what to pretty much expect when they get those two sketches. I think that's a super big part of why no one really has revisions because we talked it all out.

As a professional, you know what's obviously you need to rule out when you're doing a logo like what styles are too trendy, and you shouldn't be using or what's appropriate for their audience or because of all the different sizing and placements of the logo, you need this kind of lockup if you could only afford lockup, things like that.

Ian Paget: Okay. That makes total sense. I'm curious to know the presentation that you send, you mentioned it's more like a case study. How are you presenting that work? Are you showing the steps that you took to get to that final thing? Because I understand at that point, that's kind of like the finished thing to some extent, isn't it? So I'm just curious what is it that you're presenting at that point?

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah, it's pretty much a rundown of every design decision I've made along the way. Again, another way that I just make sure I stay on track with my client's goals... because as we know as artists, we have shiny-object syndrome. If we see something cool we want to make it. Sometimes personal preference can dig its dirty claws into your client's work where it really shouldn't be.

So any day that I'm working on a client project, when I'm done for the day, I go ahead, and I record everything I did. So whether it's me taking a picture of me sketching or me just uploading a scan or screen grabbing the mood board. Then I write out what I did that day and why I did it. That way, every stage along the way, I'm making sure I'm staying with those guides that have been set forth, and I stay within the scope because even sometimes staying within the scope, you always want to do more.

You want to over-deliver, but you have to only do what you're being paid for. I think that's very important because it just gives the client a reason to take advantage of you, unfortunately.

To get back to your question, yeah, I pretty much have all that content already made. So by the time it's done, essentially the case study's done. If you look at any of my portfolio pieces right now on the site, you can see exactly what I present to the client.

So just showing, hey, this is the Pinterest board. This is the art direction we talked about. Here are the sketches. I'll show them maybe two or three versions of me creating logos because, let's face it, if I posted every single thing I did, that page would be very, very long. So I do keep it a little bit more concise. Usually, I only write a paragraph or two with each step. Then if they did include a branding guide, I'll usually include a file to download from that page of the branding guide.

I don't feel concerned giving them all that information at the end because they're all 72 DPI. It's obviously for the web. If they even tried to use the logo, it would not only be a legal issue because I do have lawyers on retainer, it wouldn't be a very high-quality version. I don't believe in watermarks either, so there's a level of trust that I have to give back to the client at a certain point.

They usually are very impressed just like, "Wow." Even though I tell them they're going to get this at the end of the day, they're always like, "Holy crap. No one I've ever worked with..." Especially when you work with big agencies that work with logo designers and illustrators all the time tell you, "You're the first person to ever do this. I'm so impressed." That makes you feel good. They're probably going to want to work with you again.

That's the kind of over-delivering I want to do. I don't want to give you 10 different options to pick for a logo, but for me to just show myself as professional as possible is always something I'm trying to stay true to during any production process while working with a client. I think the case study is just like the icing on the cake.

Ian Paget: I love it. It kind of sounds like a diary for the project and the client-

Dina Rodriguez: That's exactly what it is.

Ian Paget: Yeah. It's like the client can just read through and rather than just getting the final thing, they're actually able to follow along your journey and feel more connected with it. I mean I don't know anyone else that does this type of thing to that degree. I think it goes nicely with your brand and everything that you created. It's got more of a handmade feel to it, and I think that's really nice.

Dina Rodriguez: Thanks. Yeah. I don't know. I heard it from someone before Sean Wes, and it had nothing to do with lettering or design. I think it was like a social media marketing tactic for clients when social media was like, "Oh, wow. We can use this to make money?" When that light bulb was finally coming up a few years ago.

And just taking other people's processes, trying them, and then just seeing what works the best for me because there's a lot of things that all these really cool influencers will say, but you have to make a decision for yourself what works for me.

Whether you have family or kids, that might change your production timeline or maybe you're the kind of person who likes to present more options. If that's something you feel more comfortable with, then do it. I definitely think give my process a try. See if it does something for your bottom line. If it doesn't, don't do it. If it does, awesome. I'm so happy you listened to this podcast.

Ian Paget: Okay. I know that you live feed your work on Twitch, which I've got to say is very brave. With Twitch, I don't know if anyone's seen it. Basically, Dina, she does this live feed. People can come in, and they can watch, and they can interact. I remember the first time I came on. I come on, and it was the weirdest thing, kind of watching a tutorial, and you can ask a question. Dina, you're like, "Hey, Ian." It's so strange. It's so strange. Now, I'm really curious what was it that made you start doing this?

Dina Rodriguez: Okay. Again, jealousy. Jealous is what got me to stream. Jealousy is what got me to letter. It's so weird. When you get mad that people are more successful than you, do something about it, okay? That's the only thing I can say.

My best friend from school growing up, her name is Amanda Fasola. She was streaming games on Twitch because it's a mostly gaming platform. Adobe went ahead, and took it over, and created the creative section, which has been exploding for the past few years, just to give you guys some background. So she has a tag called Curvyllama. She plays H1Z1. She's really funny, and she does voices and all that stuff.

She makes a living from Twitch. She doesn't have a job. She's not an artist. She doesn't sell her work. She doesn't do client work. She just streams on Twitch and people donate and sub to her, just like a sub when you subscribe to someone on YouTube. It's very similar, but you pay $5 a month.

She was living off donations, and I was like, "How in holy hell did you do this? What? I've been working my butt off for 10 years, and you make three grand a month just being on the internet three hours a day? Are you kidding me?"

Ian Paget: No way.

Dina Rodriguez: "I need to know more about this." So she came to visit me for my birthday a few years ago, and I was on her stream. I checked it out. There was drinking involved, so it made it much more fun.

I'm very bad at playing video games, so I screamed a lot because, of course, we played a scary game. I was just like, "I don't want to die." It was awful. I really liked it. The community was really cool. You just kind of got that rush of the dopamine when people like you, right? That's why we are attached to our phones and love that blue screen so much.

So I was like, "Okay. I'm going to give this a go." So she gave me Twitch 101 while she was here.

I set it up on my computer, and I got OBS. For those of you who aren't familiar with Twitch as a streamer, it's very complicated. Very, very complicated. There's no... a lot of resources out there to learn it. Another story is I wrote an ebook teaching you how to use Twitch because Twitch didn't even have a book on how to use their own platform. Anyways, I just started doing it, and I really liked it.

This was at a point where I'd just gone full-time freelance, so I was missing that social interaction that I was getting from my day job. Mind you, there was only a few people that I worked with, but still, just being... You almost feel like you're a prisoner in your house. Then you're just excited to go to the grocery store when you first go full-time because you're just not used to the solitude.

It really helped me break out of the four walls of my studio, actually talk to someone, talk to lots of someones. They were engaging with me. They seemed to like my personality and my work. I used to be a standup comedian, so I do little bits and they'd be like, "Whoa. How did we go from talking about the tittle of I to a boob joke? What just happened?" It's much more of my personality in little bit more of like a conversation, not like a webinar that's so white-collar and overly professional.

Raji King was on my show once on Twitch, and he coined the term, "Dina, you are perve-fessional." I think that's the most beautiful way to describe my personality as a professional, I would say. Yeah, that's how I got started in it. I still stream all the time. Now, I'm even starting to stream on Patreon because they just integrated... It's right now in beta, but they like me. So, yay, I have the beta. I've been focusing more in Patreon lately, but I just think live-streaming, in general, is just wonderful.

It's the best way to make a real, I mean this, real connection with your audience. You're not just limited to 147 characters. You're not able to screen yourself. You have to screen yourself, and that's the best thing that you can do for your brand, especially if it's just you, and you're not a part of an agency.

People get to know you. If someone likes you, on top of respecting your work and wanting to work with you, oh my god, that is a serious loyal customer for years. It made such a huge difference. People were buying my products more, my books. I was getting more clients from it. I was doing a really fun commission for these people like making personalised greeting cards. I even made a motorcycle patch for a girl gang. What? Doing all these really fun projects. Yeah, I'll always livestream. Livestream is the best.

Ian Paget: Okay. You're live-streaming. Are you doing paid work while streaming?

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah. Well, if I'm allowed to, yeah.

Ian Paget: Okay. I take it the client is probably going to sit there and watch. Am I right?

Dina Rodriguez: That's happened a few times, yeah.

Ian Paget: Do you ever get any problem where the client starts to almost tell you what they're expecting or interacting with you whilst you're doing that? Because I guess my concern doing that is it would kind of be like having your client sat there watching what you're doing, which, I don't know, I don't feel like I would be okay with that. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are with this.

Dina Rodriguez: Well, it depends on what phase of the process that I'm streaming to. Let's say they've already seen the two sketches, and I'm in the digitisation, then there's nothing really for them to backseat drive at that point.

There were a few times where... or I'd start in the very, very beginning thumbnail phase where even if they did want to say something, I would just be like, "Hey, I'm still in the brainstorming process. You know what I mean? I haven't tried everything yet. You're probably not even going to see during this stream what I'm officially going to show you." So usually when it comes to the really important part, I'll normally not stream it.

Even when I have in the past before, like when I did this crazy chalk mirror. I think it was my first one for a place called Merchant logo East Side Printing Co. It was one of those collages of all their different services on one side. It was this rotating custom wood panel that was really cool. They spent way too much money on redecorating their studio. The front was their logo, and a place to put a bookshelf, and this whole thing.

This project took forever to do, and I was losing my mind. So I just had to stream the whole thing just so I could get a little company while I... Sometimes he would come in and check it out. He never said anything bad. He never was trying to tell me what to do. Especially since I established those boundaries so much upfront and repeat them so much in the beginning of the process, it's very rare for a client to even think it's appropriate for them to chime in because they know that's one of the boundaries I have. It's not the appropriate time for feedback.

Ian Paget: Okay. Then my other question was what is it that makes you continue to keep doing this?

Dina Rodriguez: I like it. It's fun.

Ian Paget: You love it, yeah.

Dina Rodriguez: I really like it. I don't know. It's just so nice. It's like walking into a bar where everyone knows your name. When you start streaming, everyone's really excited. People are just so beautifully kind. I know we live in this world of trolls and awful people, and those people exist, sure. But the positive, happy people so much outweigh the trolls. It's crazy.

I'll say something like, "Oh, man. I'm hungry. My client hasn't paid me yet. I don't have any money for groceries." Boop, just got a $50 donation. What the hell? I'm like, "What is wrong with you people?" Or I'm having a computer issue, so someone will hang out with me on another app called Discord, which works great with Twitch, to help me through my problem for two hours. You're not just streaming to your fans. You're streaming to your friends. You know what I mean?

Ian Paget: That's so cool.

Dina Rodriguez: Yeah. It's a great feeling too. It's not for everyone, but I definitely think it's worth trying if anyone has the time to stream, or maybe you're in the same predicament as me, and you're just feeling a little lonesome. It's great. So whatever streaming platform. I would highly recommend Twitch because they've got all the kinks out. It's working really well.

Patreon, I see a great future for them for live-streaming, and then, obviously, YouTube. I'm not a big fan of the mobile live like the Instagram Live or the Facebook. Something about being able to have multiple camera angles and just a little bit more control over the stream, I feel like, just makes it so much more entertaining. And if your stream is more entertaining, then it's less pressure for you to be entertaining. Kind of like a weird yin yang to that.

Ian Paget: Okay. I think you need to tell everyone when do you stream, and how can they get in on the...

Dina Rodriguez: Well, man, I wish I was cool enough to have a schedule. I so don't believe in schedules. I tried so many times to like, "Okay. Every Thursday, this time," but then life got in the way or a friend needed me or I had to make dinner or I was in a client meeting too long because clients will always take priority over streaming.

If you do follow me on Twitch or follow me on Twitter, I'll always announce when I'm about to go live, and if you just follow me, you'll get a nice, little notification. That way, I can stream at all different timezones, hang out with people from the UK, and Amsterdam, and also here in the States.

So I like to change it up a bit, but just follow me on twitch.tv/lettershoppe. If you want to be super cool, and I mean this, super cool, follow me on Patreon, patreon.com/lettershoppe. If you just pledge a dollar, that's it, a dollar, you get free lettering tutorials, and you get exclusive access to all the livestreams. I don't know if I'm officially going to switch to Patreon, but I think, for now, I'm going to be best friends with both of them because they're both really fun. Also, there's something really special about an exclusive livestream. I really like it. Smaller communities, better interaction.

Ian Paget: Well, our time's almost up, so I've got one last question for you. You found your passion and you're now making a living from it. For others out there who also want to do the same, what one piece of advice could you give them to do that?

Dina Rodriguez: Absorb as much content as possible. Read all the articles, subscribe to the podcasts, watch the videos. Then once you've run out of free content, go to paid content.

I teach different styles of hand lettering every single month on Patreon, things like black letter, Victorian, all the vintage styles. I also even have a class on CreativeLive that teaches you how to make money from your passion, specifically if you want to be illustrator or lettering artist. Just type Dina Rodriguez into CreativeLive. You'll find it.

Besides that, once you're consuming that content, don't forget that even though you need to be learning and growing, you still need to produce more content than you are absorbing because if you're just learning, and you're not practicing, you're not going to get any better. They need to go hand in hand. That's the most important thing I could ever tell anybody.

Ian Paget: I love that advice. Everything you said there, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes. There's been so much that we spoke about in this, different links and resources. So I'll mention the link shortly. Yeah, I'll add it in the show notes. Fantastic. Well, Dina, thank you so much for being on the podcast. You've been an awesome guest. Yeah, I'm sure I'll speak to you soon.

Dina Rodriguez: Yay. Happy to be here. Bye, guys.